I want to ask from a religious viewpoint is Israel a non religious state?

not into politics much but At united nation speech today Benjamn Netanyahoo must have said "Israel is the only Jewish state in the world" at least 10 times, and if they are a jewish religion state as Netanyaho claims then why is he threatned to bomb another country? Does that go against the torah?

Judaism shares some of the characteristics of a nation, an ethnicity, a religion, and a culture, making the definition of who is a Jew vary slightly depending on whether a religious or national approach to identity is use

from wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews#Who_is_a_Jew.3F

There are plenty of secular Israelis. Netanyahu is talking about ethnicity from a political perspective, not religion primarily if he is addressing the UN.

have a boo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Israel

ethnicity from a poltical perspective?

Im not the best englis typer I clicked on one of the webpages and if Israeli claims to be a jewish state then what about the millions of islams who live in Israel? why is it Israel not referred to an an Islam state ?

And what about the Israel president said about blowing up another countre today?

thank you for replys LEMONZEST

I didn't listen to the speech, but I would imagine he talked about bombing another country in order to protect Israel from a potential serious attack? Self-defense is allowed in Judaism, and there's no reason it can't be preemptive if that's more prudent.

I know nothing of the actual situation though so I'm not saying that a preemptive attack here is actually justifiable.

,

It is a tricky question, as

a) jewish can imply a cultural heritage as much as a religious one
a) Israel does not have a constitution.

thus there is no strict formalized answer to the question, instead we have to look at historical and legal customs.

The state-declaration of Israel does guarantee religious freedom, and secular principle was common in the ideals behind the formation of modern Israel, but when the state was actually formed religious leaders were well represented in government and basic law does hold that it is a Jewish state. The state declaration also recognizes the important of Judaism, and indeed the Israeli flag itself contains a lot of religious symbolism. However, such symbolism can often be claimed to be cultural rather than religious.

If we look at the legal system, this is similarly intertwined with religion. While it is largely independent of religion in penal matters, religious courts does have judicial power in many family matters. This includes Jewish, Christian, Muslim and Druze courts.

To be short; I think a person can argue that Israel is secular, and I think he could also argue that it is not. I don't have solid knowledge on this, but I would be surprised if the the local populace is not divided on the issue. Especially when we consider that this division was present in Israels very formation.

Personally I would say Israel is a religious state, but it is not a theocracy as the the religion of the state is kept in check by its state declaration and its legal customs.

many thanks for replys tame-_deauces


Forget about Jews and Muslims , looking at historical customs why is Israel not a Christian State? Isa is a holy figure in Israel and was born in the holy land . I understand Israel is a Jewish state but they have millions of Muslims living in Israel , so why is it not a Muslim State? But we know this is not logic

My tak, well Israel should be share equally by Muslims Christians and Jews , as of now this is not the case but one day it will be Insha'Alla

From a religious perspective, the Jews are trying to rebuild their holy temple on the "temple mount" where the muslim "dome on the rock" stands. This is where they will perform their sacred rituals which can only be performed in the temple, which itself must be built in this exact location.

Many Christians are also waiting for this even to occur as they believe it is prophesied in the bible, and will occur before the return of Jesus. This would be the third temple which is eagerly awaited, especially since they believe the prophecy of Israel reuniting was fulfilled in 1948.

Obviously since Muslims currently own this piece of real estate, and currently worship there, there is a lot of tension.

The Jews at one point wanted to move the Dome to Mecca, but obviously the Muslims would allow that, and even now many Jews want to take it by force.

Very interesting stuff.

Well it is shared as people of those and any religion are allowed to live in Israel and practice their religion.

However, it will always be a Jewish country. There are several countries Muslims can go to that are run by Muslims and several countries Christians can go to that are also safe for Christians. But Israel is the only place in the world where Jews are guaranteed to be free from persecution. There aren't many of us in the world, so we need a home in which we can be safe.

France is the homeland of the French. What am I implying here? Being French has more cultural associations, a nationally identity, a historical heritage, than just speaking the language. I can brush up on my French but that wouldn't make me French. France preferentiates French people (for citizenship, say). Now consider Israel. If we think of the nationalistic or cultural or historical associations of being a Jew, it would be quite right to speak of Israel as the homeland once Jews. And it too preferentiates jews for things like citizenship.

The flip side however is that being Jewish often but nowhere close to always means supporting the religion of the same name. So the question is, does the government of Israel track more with the former or the latter? I think it is pretty clear from its pluralistic and largely secular laws and judiciary that it is much more the former. So while I do find such statements disenfranchising (to its minority populations), their manifestations in law are pretty mild and it is pretty close to a secular democracy in practice.

ganstaman sholom to you I disagree with you but still respect you and respectfully with the poster who said Israel is a full democracy , maybe a slight one but not fully, Israel should remove hundreds of miles of barrir wall , and remove occupations. is this fair to you that ?

I will say as human beings equal under the eyes of allah you know there are millions of muslims in Israel and millions more in Palestine, each should be recognized equal this is not to mention how in 1948 Palestine was majority muslim and very sadly many of the muslims become refugees many are willing to forgive this ugly moment in history.for forgivness Israel politics should fully recongnize the rights of a muslim population in Israel and Palestine .do you argree to this in full ganstaman? or only to a certain point?

By that line of thinking, would the Vatican be the only place Christians are guaranteed to be free of persecution?

A number of democracies are much more powerful and live in less dangerous neighborhoods than Israel, and as a practical matter their secular traditions and armies offer more protection, I would say.

I don't think defining Israel as a Jewish state offers more protection, since it creates an inherent conflict with everyone else living there.

uhoh we picked up a politards israel thread reg.

Obviously I'm not a psychic so I don't know what the future brings, but so far I think having the state of Israel has afforded Jews more protection than not having it. Especially when we include into the equation the protection of actually having a recognized sovereign state speaking on your behalf, which has likely also greatly reduced persecution of Jews worldwide.

As for the safety of the region: For small nations, sovereign integrity is a question of who you know more than what you can do.

That's a benefit. Capturing old Nazis and trying them comes to mind as an example. But creating an ethnic/religious based state has also stirred up international resentment which also needs to be in the equation. I don't see the "speaking on your behalf" as coming close to matching the international isolation and condemnation.

Well of course the current situation in Israel isn't good. I don't know of a great solution that both sides would actually agree to without fighting, but everyone should have a government that represents them fairly.

But who doesn't agree with this? It's really a separate topic that belongs in the politics forum and isn't something we're going to solve here. It's too messy a situation.

I would not say that the Vatican is comparable. According to wiki, it seems there are about 124 countries in the world with a population that is >= 50% Christian. There is 1 country that is more than 2.5% Jewish. Jews, as a people, don't have a home outside of Israel. We saw in the 1940s why it's so important to have such a home, even if it's not in the best of 'neighborhoods.'

Just to make it clear I'm not opposed to the existence of a Jewish state and given Israel has existed for 75 years and the interests of those living there are due consideration I'm not anti Israel. I am often anti Israeli policy.

I don't think this is a great argument. I think there are plenty of examples of religions that have no state and I don't know widespread but small Jewish communities form the type of national interests that establish legitimate states. I think the statehood of Israel is established but I don't know the criteria you cite above is sufficient for its creation.

What happened in the 40's was an atrocity that stands apart from all others for a number of reasons but to cite it as evidence of the necessity of a Jewish state seems a mistake. It was established on the back of the holocaust but I don't know you can claim the surviving Jewish population needed Israel to ensure it wouldn't happen again. At the end of the war 33% of the population of Palestine was Jewish I don't know that's sufficient for what transpires.

My paternal grandparents left Germany for Liverpool in the 1930's.

Can you be more specific about your objections to using the Holocaust as a reason for creating a state for Jews to safely flee to and provide protection and representation in the event of something similar? You're saying it's a mistake but not saying why.

Because I don't know you can claim the surviving Jewish population needed Israel to ensure it wouldn't happen again.

Your claim seems to suggest prevention of another holocaust necessitated the creation of a Jewish state. If that's the claim both the likelihood it would be allowed to happen again and the role Israel could play in preventing it have to be considered and I don't think that's enough.

This isn't to say there aren't other considerations and this isn't to criticise the personal motives of anyone who emigrated to Israel, either prior to it's establishment, or since.

And apologies this is the one subject I never usually post on.

I wouldn't say prevention is the expectation. But Israel does provide Jews with some protection.

But they generally are not defined sectarianly as Christian.

Most Jews who left Europe did not choose Palestine. A Jewish state is not the only way to achieve security for people. It also doesn't guarantee safety and in fact brought antagonism with the people displaced. There's no mandatory military service to live in Brooklyn. Another choice would have been to build community in Palestine but not insist that ethnic privilege be enshrined in the state.That wasn't in the cards, though.

Jews survived in the Middle East for millennia with much less of the pogroms and the Holocaust that made European antisemitism so special. But the creation of Israel recast Jews relationship with the ME.

As a Jewish living in New York, I would disagree. I'd also say that the existence of countries that are officially atheistic doesn't make me feel any safer.

I'm not sure I understand this but isn't Canada a country where Jews are free from persecution?
The concern of course would be, in doing so, another population might feel alienated and begin to resent and resist such divisions.

Which atheistic countries? I'm assuming, maybe wrongly, Scandinavian?

More like: China, Cuba, USSR, and other communist countries.