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This time killing atheism with a simple essay

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08-19-2011 , 04:41 AM

#76

batair

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That is the problalm. His op is flawed in the same way Pascal's Wager is. In that one cant just believe what they want to believe. Our minds need new information thats strong enough to cause one to change their beliefs.

Now he and other will give some version of seek, but give no direction. Which well.....

Not that that is the only way the op fails. Atheism doesn't exclude belief in an afterlife. So although they may be a rare breed his op doesn't apply to all atheists or atheism in and of itself.

Last edited by batair; 08-19-2011 at 05:02 AM.

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08-19-2011 , 05:36 AM

#77

neeeel

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 4,731

Quote:

Originally Posted by shahrad

A food might look very ugly in a way that someone cannot imagine it will taste good, but it might still taste good. I guess you did claim that 'one can never find out if you are an invisible passenger without dying' cause you are omniscient. Otherwise I don't know how you can so exsessively be convinced about the trueness of your claim.

No, i didnt claim it cause I am omniscient. I claimed it because its true ( at the moment anyway). If you are aware of any method of determining if we are an invisible passenger , without dying, then please let me know. The only ways I can think of are 1) we die, and find out, or 2) someone sends a message back after death. Since neither have happened yet, I think my "claim" is safe. I guess science may one day discover some energy or something which hangs around after death, or something strange, but this still wouldnt prove that a god exists

You see to think that by accepting the claim, we are making the claim true. This seems to be what you are saying. Which is bull****

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08-19-2011 , 07:38 AM

#78

tame_deuces

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Quote:

Originally Posted by weaselgirl

Can I have the one word version? Thx.

Jumble

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08-19-2011 , 09:44 AM

#79

Original Position

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Quote:

Originally Posted by shahrad

How can a poor man likey me discuss with you guys. You all are obviously omniscient. You guys know at least what you are and what you are not. You guys know what will happen to you and what will not. I tried to discuss with Original Position, but it seems that I said lots of things that I wasen't aware of saying those, the longer the discussion with him goes, the the more he adds to the list fo what I said. Batair and others see also things, that I am not aware of having said those. So you, my omniscience gods, might excuse a poor guy like, who has still to learn a lot and therefore till then will not respond in this thread anymore.
My Gods and Psychologists, please wish me good luck (please don't prey for me) on my way to become like you.

Well, obviously none of us are omniscient. However, it is not necessary to be omniscient to realize that they we are all going to die. Also, I am glad I could help point out some of the false assumptions being made in your argument. So I wish you good luck.

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08-19-2011 , 10:52 AM

#80

gskowal

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 3,521

Quote:

Originally Posted by shahrad

In the light of this, I declare strong Atheism for death. Why? Because in the light of my essay believing there is no god, no soul and no afterlife and that we are nothing but a dying body… is pure nonsense.

You still haven't proved your point in bolded. Just because you say it is dead and that it's nonsense it does not make it so...

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08-19-2011 , 11:21 AM

#81

neeeel

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 4,731

Quote:

Originally Posted by shahrad

No, the point is that we know that we will die, but we dont know what happens after that. And neither do you.

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08-19-2011 , 12:48 PM

#82

selbaC

stranger

Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 14

Quote:

Originally Posted by neeeel

Would appreciate an answer as to how your essay validates the conclusion that Believing there is no god and no afterlife is pure nonsense

Same.

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08-19-2011 , 11:54 PM

#83

FlushRoyal

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 266

Quote:

Originally Posted by shahrad

The first postulate of rational means is: try everything to survive. That we cannot prove by rational means if something is going to help or not is secondary.
With other words if through rational mean we cannot find a way to survive, we are forced through our rational mean to try irrational. For example you are on a cliff and a lion attacks you. The cliff is pretty high but now you have no time to see if the cliff is above water or not in a way that you might survive, you just don't know it. Your rational analysis says no way out but this is secondary, your primar rational mean says: you should jump, even if it is very unlikely that you will survive. Not jumping means surely to end up as lion's launch.

There's is absolutely nothing irrational about this example.
Even you yourself point it out.
You never "prove" anything. You weigh the consequences and the opposite of the decision should look as unlikely (read: ratio) as possible.

Given that you used your ratio to decide which consequences two or more scenarios may have, there's, AGAIN, absolutely nothing irrational about jumping.

You assigned surviving the jump (consciously or subconsciously) a % that is HIGHER than not reacting.

Now, if by not reacting, said % of surviving is way lower than jumping, then you either don't have enough information about the situation you are in (for example, a little baby playing with a gun thinking it's a toy OR SOMETHING), or you are an idiot who thinks he can kill a lion with his bare hands.

What would be truly irrational in this situation?
Trying to engage the lion in a conversation about your last holiday or taking out your mobile phone and starting to order a pizza. THAT would be irrational.

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08-20-2011 , 12:12 AM

#84

FlushRoyal

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 266

Quote:

Originally Posted by shahrad

People who are healthy and not in danger or in a situation like you, for those death seems to be a phantasie product which only happens to others. They know they will die but they don't believe it.

Many young people end up being doctors and deal with death directly, every day.
From cancer patients, through car accidents, to people with heart attacks or deadly diseases. Policemen or soldiers come into dangerous situations and are used to the thought of being some idiots next victim.

Then there's a huge number of (especially young women), who work in asylums or houses for the elderly. Not only do they deal with people who are often in the process of dying and have been for years; often these people tell them stories.
Not about Jesus, Mohammed, or other fairy tales.
No, they talk about "being a young girl/boy", enjoying life, remembering those they lost along the way. You know why? Because when you are old and about to die, you value life more and more and you are thankful for being alive, more and more. Only people like you have the time to make some pseudo-New Ageish posts about something which is inevitable, but not your daily life.

Do you die every day, or once? Do you live every day, or just for a short moment and cease to exist?
So what makes more sense? Preparing your whole life for something you won't be part of (guess what? not many who really died were at their own funeral), or enjoying something you are already part of?

Ask yourself the following, before making "deep" threads about things you have no idea of: how many people who died did you meet in your life, who told you about death and what it's all about and how's the food over there and stuff? I suspect zero.
How many people can you potentially meet? Guess what, zero.

Now how many people can you meet that can teach you about life or that you can share your experiences with?
Literally billions.

Wake up, before you die, or you will never wake up again.
Cheers.

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08-20-2011 , 02:18 AM

#85

Doggg

veteran

Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 2,121

I've got your back, shahrad.

Quote:

I recently read an argument that atheists are fools, not for disbelieving in God, but for believing too much in themselves. The writer argues that what makes theists superior to atheists is not their faith, but in fact their doubt. I can't speak for every theist, but it's certainly my case that my faith in God goes hand in hand with a lot of skepticism. My belief in God is accompanied by the dreadful suspicion that I may, after all, be deluding myself. I think the same is true of most, perhaps all theists.

Atheism, on the contrary, seems a close-minded position. The atheist sees himself as the master of a universe in which he is the sole bearer of truth. In the atheist's mind there is no doubt, no sense of insecurity, no possibility that he might be wrong without realizing it. Unlike most people, the atheist is not bothered by the fact that his feeling of certainty is not shared by the absolute majority of people around him; in fact he often takes pride in that. The atheist believes people fool themselves too easily, but somehow believes he can't possibly be also a victim of the same weakness. When it comes to cosmic matters, both theists and atheists are ignorant, but the theist has the advantage of making his ignorance a central fact in his philosophy, while the atheist chooses to disregard it.

Last edited by Doggg; 08-20-2011 at 02:33 AM. Reason: Found this on a forum.

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08-20-2011 , 02:48 AM

#86

batair

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I didn't know i was the master of the universe and know the cosmic answers. Pretty cool.

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08-20-2011 , 02:57 AM

#87

stu+stu

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08-20-2011 , 03:27 AM

#88

Gordy N. Okam

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Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 435

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShermanTank

I'm visiting an uncle dying of liver cancer right now. I find it sad that many of the family theists probably will attribute it to karma from drinking and take solace in that afterlife idea and not visit much. I wouldn't read him your essay because that talk would be offensive when its someone's last month to live. To be honest he spends more time thinking about the past and current pain and doesn't seem nearly as worried about the afterlife as you are.

Argument from personal incredulity. Whoops four.

It really sounds like this fellow could use some god.

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08-20-2011 , 03:35 AM

#89

Gordy N. Okam

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Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 435

Quote:

Originally Posted by stu+stu

Christians jump and die like everyone else. They just thought there was going to be water there.

Maybe there is.

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08-20-2011 , 03:36 AM

#90

Gordy N. Okam

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Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 435

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.K

OP.. without using big words and writing in a style you think appears to make you more intelligent (and therefore validates your beleifs) answer simply why the fact that the human body ceases to exist at death proves atheism is incorrect?

The body continues to exist at death.

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08-20-2011 , 03:41 AM

#91

Gordy N. Okam

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Original Position

Okay, so you agree with me that we are going to die. So there is no point in the atheist worrying about death--everyone does it. However, you think there is some possibility that we can continue on existing after our death and that the atheist is making a mistake by not doing what she can to continue existing.

Here's the problem. No one knows anything about how to continue existing after you die. Sure, it is possible that we do continue existing in some way, but we don't know anything about how to make this more or less likely. Thus, there is no action we can take or belief we can hold that will make this more or less likely. So there is no point in basing our actions or beliefs on this possibility.

For example, you claim that the possibility that we can continue existing after we die refutes atheism. However, this only functions as a refutation of atheism if being an atheist means that you won't continue existing (or are less likely to continue existing) after you die. But we have no reason to think that is true. It is just as likely that not being an atheist means that you won't continue existing (or are less likely to continue existing) after you die. Thus, you haven't refuted atheism. You haven't even touched it.

You claim that you don't recommend or analyze any methods of continuing to exist after we die, but this is false. You are assuming that being an atheist (i.e. not believing that there is a god) makes it less likely that we'll continue to exist after we die. Thus, you are claiming that believing that there is a god makes it more likely that we will exist after we die--i.e. silly religious stuff.

I read post 37 already and found it lacking in actual logical analysis. You don't seem to know what nonsense means (it means something that doesn't make sense or isn't meaningful, not something that is foolish or unwise). You are being insufficiently careful in distinguishing between believing that there is an afterlife and it being true that there is an afterlife.

So, you presented an argument for believing that there is an afterlife (not because it is true that there is an afterlife, but because you think that our lives will be better for doing so). I think this is a mistake on a number of grounds. First, I don't accept your assumption that everyone's lives would be better if they believed in an afterlife. Second, I don't really think we should encourage people to believe stuff just because it might make them happier in the short term. And third, you don't show anything about whether atheism is true or false in your argument and so I don't see any relation at all to it being a refutation of atheism.

This is very logical. But the fact remains that being atheist means you give up on seeking everlasting life.

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08-20-2011 , 03:42 AM

#92

Gordy N. Okam

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Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 435

Quote:

Originally Posted by weaselgirl

Am I meant to just pick one at random?

Butyeah, Pascal's Wager. Looks like Original Position is covering it pretty well.

I'd go with 'boobs' myself.

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08-20-2011 , 03:44 AM

#93

Gordy N. Okam

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Quote:

Originally Posted by batair

I would be interested in hearing from an atheist who believed in an afterlife.

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08-20-2011 , 03:53 AM

#94

always_sunni_

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 1,262

batair: "Being an atheist doesn't preclude one from liking the taste of goat feces."
Gordy: "I would be interested in hearing from an atheist who likes the taste of goat feces."

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08-20-2011 , 03:56 AM

#95

Gordy N. Okam

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 435

Quote:

Originally Posted by always_sunni_

batair: "Being an atheist doesn't exclude one from liking the taste of goat feces."
Gordy: "I would be interested in hearing from an atheist who likes the taste of goat feces."

I'm just not sure how you could possibly enjoy goat feces without the concept of god.

No, not goat poo, the afterlife.

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08-20-2011 , 04:03 AM

#96

batair

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Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 16,802

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordy N. Okam

I would be interested in hearing from an atheist who believed in an afterlife.

Like i said they are rare, ive only met one, though i dont know many atheists. Find one who believes in ghosts and ask them about it.

And not sure if you consider Buddhists who dont believe in God atheists. But if you do and they believe in reincarnation you could ask them about that.

Either way atheism says nothing about an afterlife.

Last edited by batair; 08-20-2011 at 04:11 AM.

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08-20-2011 , 04:04 AM

#97

stu+stu

banned

Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 4,486

I believe that we're living beings.. and not of a special variety (as life has shown me), so like every form of life, we die.

Just because we're creative, that doesn't give us an out.

The guy above me says "maybe there is water there".. I say, yeah, but you'll never know until you jump. Do you feel comfortable enough to make that jump right now, at this very moment? My guess is that you're not.

My guess is that no theist would take "that" "leap of faith".

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08-20-2011 , 04:08 AM

#98

always_sunni_

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 1,262

The point was that not believing in gods doesn't necessitate rejection of the afterlife. There don't need to be atheists who believe in an afterlife for that to be true.