Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
Theists, give me your best shot. Theists, give me your best shot.

09-17-2011 , 02:48 AM
OrP is a mod, yay!
Theists, give me your best shot. Quote
09-17-2011 , 12:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by duffe
To personally fill in the blank, I’d start with saying that as an atheist-agnostic I kind of perused the general metaphysical schemas and put together a worldview that seems like the best available description of reality, without really paying too much attention to theology. Later, when I took the time to go through the N.T. I realized that much of what Jesus had to say harmonizes with, fleshes-out, enhances and elaborates my worldview from both a metaphysical and an experiential standpoint....
What was this "worldview that seem[ed] the best available description of reality"?

I ask because that seems a...questionable...label to use for a worldview which was apparently even more skeletal than Jesus' words recorded in the NT. (I.e. could be "enhanced and elaborated" by them.)

Very questionable.
Theists, give me your best shot. Quote
09-17-2011 , 12:45 PM
I do agree Jesus captured the idea that "the world is on fire and salvation is the one thing needful" in a way that has rarely been matched.

However reality contains rather more than just this one sentiment, right?
Theists, give me your best shot. Quote
09-17-2011 , 03:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Subfallen
What was this "worldview that seem[ed] the best available description of reality"?

I ask because that seems a...questionable...label to use for a worldview which was apparently even more skeletal than Jesus' words recorded in the NT. (I.e. could be "enhanced and elaborated" by them.)

Very questionable.
The best description of reality, seem[ingly] to me, is at the highest level, reality is one or not-otherness, i.e. there is not otherness at the highest level of reality.
Theists, give me your best shot. Quote
09-17-2011 , 03:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Subfallen
I do agree Jesus captured the idea that "the world is on fire and salvation is the one thing needful" in a way that has rarely been matched.

However reality contains rather more than just this one sentiment, right?
I think reality contains truth. And since I conceive of different levels of reality I think those different levels contain their own truth(s). So in that sense, yeah.
Theists, give me your best shot. Quote
09-17-2011 , 04:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by duffe
The best description of reality, seem[ingly] to me, is at the highest level, reality is one or not-otherness, i.e. there is not otherness at the highest level of reality.
So why do you think this (seemingly vacuous) aphorism even describes reality---much less amounts to the best description?

In any case, I don't agree that Jesus' words elaborate on that theme. They rather emphasize fundamental dichotomies...e.g. "He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad." (Mat. 12:30).

We don't even really need to look at the gospels to see this, but merely their characteristic use---which has been to divide and subdivide and sub-subdivide groups for centuries now. An exceedingly odd result if in fact Jesus only elaborated on the essential one-ness of reality.
Theists, give me your best shot. Quote
09-17-2011 , 06:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Subfallen
So why do you think this (seemingly vacuous) aphorism even describes reality---much less amounts to the best description?
By chance, have you read David Bohm’s The Undivided Universe: An ontological interpretation of quantum theory, or Wholeness and the Implicate Order?
snippet from wiki:
Bohm pointed out that there is no scientific evidence to support the dominant view that the universe consists of a huge, finite number of minute particles, and offered in its stead a view of undivided wholeness: "ultimately, the entire universe (with all its 'particles,' including those constituting human beings, their laboratories, observing instruments, etc) has to be understood as a single undivided whole, in which analysis into separately and independently existent parts has no fundamental status."
Quote:
In any case, I don't agree that Jesus' words elaborate on that theme. They rather emphasize fundamental dichotomies...e.g. "He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad." (Mat. 12:30).
Or, “I and my father are one.” Like I said, different levels of reality with different corresponding truisms.

Quote:
We don't even really need to look at the gospels to see this, but merely their characteristic use---which has been to divide and subdivide and sub-subdivide groups for centuries now. An exceedingly odd result if in fact Jesus only elaborated on the essential one-ness of reality.
Well, if you tell people to love one another and not kill each other, and they don't love one another and kill each other, I'm not sure the fault lies with the messenger or his message.
Theists, give me your best shot. Quote
09-18-2011 , 01:50 AM
I ordered Bohm's book, so will get back to you on that.

But I certainly don't agree Jesus taught the essential oneness of being. Everything is conditional: If you eat my body and drink my blood...or else you will have no part of me...

In any case I didn't mean to suggest that Jesus's teachings have typically inspired killing or anything so extreme. But they do imply a fundamental distinction between the 'Church' and the 'World'. Which typically induces another separation between the 'True Church' and the 'False Church'. Ad infinitum.

If you really disagree with this, then you should talk to Jibninjas. He seems quite sincere in using Jesus's ideals to repudiate even the vast majority of people who call themselves Christians. Etc.
Theists, give me your best shot. Quote
09-18-2011 , 03:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Subfallen
But I certainly don't agree Jesus taught the essential oneness of being.
I think it's there if one is looking for it: "That they may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us [.]"
Theists, give me your best shot. Quote
09-19-2011 , 02:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Subfallen
I ordered Bohm's book, so will get back to you on that.

But I certainly don't agree Jesus taught the essential oneness of being. Everything is conditional: If you eat my body and drink my blood...or else you will have no part of me...

In any case I didn't mean to suggest that Jesus's teachings have typically inspired killing or anything so extreme. But they do imply a fundamental distinction between the 'Church' and the 'World'. Which typically induces another separation between the 'True Church' and the 'False Church'. Ad infinitum.

If you really disagree with this, then you should talk to Jibninjas. He seems quite sincere in using Jesus's ideals to repudiate even the vast majority of people who call themselves Christians. Etc.
The Covenant of Works may apply here.

Covenant of Works

From Theopedia:

In Covenant theology, the Covenant of Works is the second of three theological covenants. It is that pre-Fall agreement between God and Adam in which Adam was promised blessing and life upon obedience to the terms of the covenant and cursing and death should he disobey the terms of the covenant. Covenant theologians maintain that the requirements of the covenant relationship are clearly defined in the commands that God gave to Adam and Eve (Genesis 1:28-30; cf 2:15) and in the direct command to Adam, 'You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die' (Gen. 2:16–17).

The Bible teaches that in Adam, all broke the covenant (Hos. 6:7) and so, in Adam all die (1 Cor. 15:22). Within covenant theology, the Covenant of Grace is God's covenant designed to bring humanity into a restored covenant relationship with him, through the death of Christ.

Westminster Confession of faith
VII.1. The distance between God and the creature is so great, that although reasonable creatures do owe obedience unto him as their Creator, yet they could never have any fruition of him, as their blessedness and reward, but by some voluntary condescencion on God's part, which he hath been pleased to express by way of covenant.
VII.2. The first covenant made with man was a covenant of works, wherein life was promised to Adam, and in him to his posterity, upon condition of perfect and personal obedience.
Theists, give me your best shot. Quote
09-19-2011 , 11:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by duffe
I think it's there if one is looking for it: "That they may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us [.]"
Is there anything that isn't there if one is looking for it?
Theists, give me your best shot. Quote

      
m