don't you ever feel like you're reducing god to a santa claus type character by doing this?

Efficacy of prayer. It solves nothing. You and your entire congregation can pray for all the terminally ill kids with cancer, and you won't budge the remission rate by even 0.00001%. But the researchers will keep studying, learning, applying, and revising. They will move the mountain, not prayer.

But you want a new bike. You need to be honest with yourself, and realize that repeated prayer isn't 'magic', nor does it persuade God. If you're consistently praying for something you want, then you have made it the focus of your attention. Whether you realize it or not, YOU are taking action towards this goal, and ultimately it is YOU who are getting it done. If you're praying for your new bike, you're also bugging the hell out of your parents for one.

It's like praying for a raise at work. What really gets you the raise? Prayer? Or you busted your ass over a period of months and years to get better and are therefore worth more money?

These parents can pray because they believe that God has the answers and the ability to guide and comfort. They trust that God is all-loving even if they can't understand his ways.

If that's actually an answer to the question it sounds like Stockholm Syndrome. How else could people bend a knee to the same god that just allowed their child to die of cancer, or deliberately caused it to happen.

Everyone seems to be focusing on why the gunman did it, or why god does what it does but that's not what I'm asking about or trying to understand.

If I knelt down to pray to a god that had just killed my child with cancer, I doubt I'd have anything but tough questions for said god,if I could even bring myself to try and 'speak' to them. I simply don't get how or why the faithful do it. How do they deal with that emotion and still pray?

i think some people have legit questions.
I'm not prepared to write off everyone here as "idiots".
If the conversation get ridiculous and isn't going anywhere then we can just wind it down.

Humility and faith.

I agree with the wizard.
(when someone outs themself as a wizard you agree with them)

go on ...

MB,

1) If god just allow things to happen then how would prayer change anything.

I think God interacts with people in real time. Sometimes God changes his mind based on how humans interact with Him. I don’t understand it but I think it is true

2) If god deliberately gives children cancer then why would praying to him make any difference?

It might seem like splitting hairs but I don’t think God gives sickness. Sickness is part of the fallen world we live in. The human body often heals itself and this is by design. Other times I believe God directly intervenes to heal people.

3) If god deliberately allows, or deliberately causes children to get cancer why would you want to pray to him?

I am not sure I can ever answer this question in a way that is satisfactory for you. I don’t know why God allows evil/suffering/sickness. Whether I reject God or not I still live in a world with evil/suffering/sickness. I would rather face life with God than without him. God is the one with all the power

Question 3 is the one I'm not really getting answer to. How do you bring yourself to get on your knees and pray to such a being that can allow or cause such awful suffering and misery?

Question is totally valid and I struggle with it too. I don’t have any pat answers. I think it takes a personal journey to come to a point where you trust God and relinquish yourself to Him. Our sense of control in life is just an illusion. I think it takes a lot of humility and willingness to go forward without much information (I guess that would be called faith).

followed by

= QED

According to you, God actively intervenes in human affairs, even though sickness is a part of the fallen world we live in, right?

How do you reconcile this belief with free will? Either you have it or you don't. Are you saying that God gives you free will until you ask him to intervene?

I agree with this too.
Wizard is pwning

Not enough Joe Pesci itt.

we all should pray for the families in Connecticut

I was going to post a funny video of Joe Pesci, but now it just doesn't seem appropriate.

Yeah your right very sad what happened.

To the same God that allowed it to happen in the first place?

Not trying to trivialize what happened in CT, but addressing this with regard to the discussion of this thread.

Why are you talking about reasons? You deny the validity of reason-based ethics, remember? God's commands "flow necessarily from His nature", right? Enough excuses, which horn of the Euthyphro dilemma are you choosing: does God have good reasons for his commands/actions or not?

I know we have splashed around discussing DCT and Euthyphro dilemma. My official position on this is "I don't know". I don't have solid answers for these questions. I might later at some point but for now I am ok with not really knowing for sure.

I just ask God for what I want.

The above statement is true but also only one aspect of prayer.
Prayer is about communicating with God and being in relationship with God.

Prayer is not primarily about getting God to do what I want and when. Expecting God to always do things our way is reducing God to Santa.

There is a balance between being thankful and also being honest with God about your needs/wants.

The key thing is that prayer is about relationship, it is not about putting a quarter in a gum ball machine.

KBC,

I don't agree with any of what your saying here. But I can concede a few points.

Sometimes Christians do call things miracles that in fact are not miracles. Eg. Getting a bike you prayed for. No one can prove this was God's activity v. activity of man. Therefore IMO better to not call it a miracle (but thats just me).

IRT Efficacy of prayer I think seeing prayer simply as getting a desired physical result is a very narrow view. As I mentioned above prayer is primarily about being in relationship to God, not primarily about getting God to do things on our terms.

Free will of man v. Sovereignty of God

IMO these 2 concepts coexist and create a sort of tension.

(Forgive me if some think poker analogies are pretentious. IMO poker is something we all understand/share and is common ground for making a point)

There is skill and variance in poker. Both concepts coexist. We don't know what will happen in the future as to our wins/losses but somehow these concepts both work together. Not a perfect analogy but thats kinda how i see it.

New Rule: Stop calling disasters with a single survivor a "miracle." When 27 people die in a classroom, but one lives, that's not a miracle. That's God blowing a no-hitter in the bottom of the ninth.

It often annoys me when fellow Christians claim something was a miracle that could be explained in a number of ways apart from God's direct intervention.

Definition of MIRACLE (Merriam-Webster)

1
: an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs
2
: an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment

Just looked this up and kind of cleared things up for me. There are miracles that don't involve God (definition 2). But definition 1 always involves God. Therefore anything really unusual that happens can correctly be dubbed a miracle. We just need to know that often when people say "miracle" it is definition 2 they are referring to (or should be referring to) and not definition 1.

I appreciate your honesty and hate to answer in a way that might cause you to regret it but when I read your answer, the message that seems to come through is that you're still prepared to pray to a being that can allow and/or directly case awful suffering because you really really want to, or need to, to the point that you can ignore the 'bad' and stay focused on the 'good'.

Is it a form of denial?

With respect it seems your position is thus:

1) When DCT would be a good answer to a question, present DCT as the answer.
2) When God's loving nature is in question, present "God has good, but inscrutable, reasons" argument.
3) When directly challenged on contradiction between 1 & 2, present "I don't know" as the answer.

<edit>
To be clear though, I'm not suggesting any deliberate deceptiveness!
</edit>
When you first started posting here one of the things you said that struck me was your view that Christianity is the most coherent worldview. I speculate that it is possible to have a coherent Christian worldview, but I don't think that you do. I'd also speculate that the reason for that is that you rely on finding answers for specific questions in the apologetic literature rather than ever trying to build a self-consistent theology.

This has been a very helpful resource to me today in light of the tragedy in Connecticut. It was originally compiled by John Piper for the Columbine, CO shooting, then added to for 9/11. I urge you to read it and use it. It also has a lot of crossover into subjects being touched on in this thread. http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-...tember-11-2001

I invite you to pray for the victims, families, communities, and the gunman. Jesus draw near to us all.