This is an excellent example of how believing in an absurdity can lead to committing an atrocity.

rizeagainst, please don't propagate ignorance about Quranic verses. That website you referenced is a well known fake site. Not even I'm qualified to interpret the verses. It takes a great deal of knowledge and understanding.

I mean, if you want to be prejudiced, that's your right, but don't spout verses (out of context, no less) you don't understand.

The gun is a straw man. Guns do not convince people that killing other people is a good idea. Guns do not convince people that anything is true. The argument is that religion can make the sophist's job much easier, as religion can convince people that some things are true which are not. And not blaming ideas for actions is fractally wrong. Our conscious actions are solely based on that which we believe to be true.

While I did not actually say anything about religion causing deaths (the first instance of this was in Prax's post), is anybody here actually in disagreement that religious beliefs can be used to motivate people to kill other people?

This is not necessarily true if the only reason they were convinced to do what they did was because they believed something that was not true. If they were persuaded through their religious beliefs, then removing those beliefs would leave no motivation. They would have had to have been convinced by means of some other belief. Osama would have had a much more difficult time convincing people to fly planes into the twin towers if those hijackers did not believe in Allah.

I agree, but I think this point is where most people are missing the boat ITT. The thread is not about whether or not religion is actually bad, it is about why atheists feel the need to speak out. Atheists do not believe that many religious claims are true. Those who speak out against it often believe that it is unnecessary, and because it has some negative consequences, it is bad (we are also now well into the effects OP wanted to ignore, but those effects are pretty hard to ignore as they are an extremely large part of why many atheists feel the need to speak out).

How long does a person need to study the Quran to figure out what "Fight those who believe not in Allah" means? Oh wow, what a complex field of study! I need theological schooling to wrap my mind around this! Then I will understand the deeper meaning of love and peace in the Quran! Thanks Hardball!

Yeah, because if I also pasted in all the inane "context" not a person in the ****ing world would read it and then you would just type tl;dr or all that other ****. And that "context" would quite possibly make it more rambling and incoherent than the quotes are.

In other words you have no reply

The people who did the killing were convinced that it was a good idea through their religious beliefs, though. Had they not had these beliefs, it would have been a much more difficult task to convince them to do it. This is why many atheists speak out: they do not believe these beliefs are true but because they are unnecessary, and can be harmful, they are a detriment. If you want an even more clear cut example, look at David Koresh and the Waco Siege. If you want an example that does not involve killing other people, look at Heaven's Gate. If you want an example that does not involve killing people at all, look at the ID movement's agenda to get evolution out of biology classrooms and ID into them.

I have a feeling that monetary gain was not much of a motivator for the suicide bombers.

No, I was thinking about making you look like more of a fool instead of correcting and explaining (futility lol), but didn't bother wasting my time since you're doing such a good job of that by yourself.

There's ignorant, and then there's willfully ignorant. You just don't seem to care to learn about it, as long as you make it a point to show somehow that religion is bad.

What about Islam do I need to not be ignorant of? Try putting content in your posts instead of just throwing out random accusations

It was the op's idiotic ".the fact that theist believe in something that atheist do not believe exists, seems to really bother atheist more than I imagined." where the boat left the dock empty.

If you have a presidential candidate and ask her what 3 squared is and she tossed a bowl of toothpicks towards her cup and counts the ones in there and says "9", you shouldn't care that she gave the right answer. Flawed reasoning is bad in itself, not in every case and it could even stumble on a workable answer. But it bodes ill.

That's the holistic answer. Specifically, you just have to pick up a newspaper to see theistic thinking interacting with political action in a way harmful to people, usually fairly defenseless people, in this lifetime. You'll even hear "I feel sorry for her, but ....." followed by a reason related to somebodies eternal soul or some such. Atheists want to cut that off at the coma.

I completely agree. This goes along with my first post ITT which stated, 'believing something that is not true is in and of itself a bad thing.'

I'm pleading you to study Islam on your own to learn about it and remove any preconceived notions you may have. It's disheartening to see people getting their information on the religion from newscasts and disreputable sources, instead of thinking critically for themselves and seeking answers. Take the time and pick up an English translation and pretend your reading a novel or something, if it makes it easier. You might actually learn something useful.

I would learn what? That it preaches peace as much as it preaches violence? The passages in the quran are as incoherent and unsupported as every other holy book. I'm not sure what your point here is.

Maybe you can explain how you believe Islam to be different from the way Islam commonly portrayed?

It seems like you are trying to dance around the real issue here which I'm not even sure what it is...actually I think you probably just wanted to pick a fight out of boredom

My goodness, there is little hope for you. Is it really too much to ask to see for yourself?

What makes you think I haven't?

The claims are unsupported, the threats and promises are empty, and certain verses inspire great acts of violence. Just like other religions.

Your evident ignorance on the subject.

Once again, you have yet to say what I'm ignorant of in Islam, this is getting old.

What does the word mean?

midly interesting sidenote: I won a copy of the Koran, but haven't read it.
It was a pre owned book for a college class and it seems the last girl to use it made it her personal mission to highlight the least insightful sentence on each page.

This is always the most disappointing thing about getting used books: the realization that the people who had them before you did not understand them.

American attitudes toward atheists:

This group does not at all agree with my vision of American society...

Atheist: 39.6%
Muslims: 26.3%
Homosexuals: 22.6%
Hispanics: 20%
Conservative Christians: 13.5%
Recent Immigrants: 12.5%
Jews: 7.6%


I would disapprove if my child wanted to marry a member of this group....

Atheist: 47.6%
Muslim: 33.5%
African-American 27.2%
Asian-Americans: 18.5%
Hispanics: 18.5%
Jews: 11.8%
Conservative Christians: 6.9%
Whites: 2.3%

American's opinions of atheists:

Very Favorable: 7%
Mostly Favorable: 27%
Mostly Unfavorable: 19%
Very Unfavorable: 33%

Americans who would refuse to vote for someone based on the relevant characteristic:

Catholic: 8%
Jewish: 10%
Evangelical Christian: 15%
Muslim: 38%
Atheist: 50%

Born-again Christians who regard the impact of these groups as negative:

Islam: 71%
Buddhism: 76%
Scientology: 81%
Atheism: 92%

Why dont you spare us all and explain rather than repeating yourself over and over and over again. Okay! We get it, you think he is ignorant.