This is something really important that most of us cannot comprehend because we're unable to remove ourselves from our past experiences.

Helen Keller became blind, deaf, and dumb (as most of you know) at the age of 1 and a half. She didn't experience anything, and I mean ANYTHING until she first learned language at age 6 or 7. It wasn't until then that she even had a consciousness. This isn't speculation on my part either, it's something she very specifically describes in her writings.

It's probably impossible for us to imagine what life would be like if we were separated from our most important cognitive senses. Here we have a person who was able to live through that to tell us about it. And there was no outer-body information, no spirituality, no gods, no soul, no sense of anything at all without sight, sound, speech, and language. It makes you wonder.

Atheists in this thread have admitted to having spiritual experiences of a non-religious nature. That's all that is needed to refute your claim.

Now, you can attempt to make a case that their experiences are somehow not genuine like yours are. But if you do, I'm going to have to ask for evidence.

Jib, I'm shocked to hear what you just said and really appreciate your honesty.

Do you feel like you're missing out on something, or do you feel (like I do) that the more you "clear your head" the more you realize that anything entering it at that point will always stem from you and not from some outside source?

I wouldn't dare say that their experiences aren't genuine. I will however say that they aren't "mutually exclusive".

Right, because you'll claim that they're experiencing your god (even though they are clearly claiming otherwise and even though you have no way to objectively judge their subjective experiences).

A Muslim will claim that your spiritual experiences are of Allah. Can you objectively prove them wrong? If not, you should be able to see why your assertion is just as faulty.

Oh Erf, I feel like I owe you an explanation for the murder trial thing in post #8. It would probably take too long in a thread format (with quoting stuff and all). PM me and we can exchange AIMs if you want.

Oh yeah, I forgot about this part. There was a time that I would experience the same, and my mind wouldn't allow me to accept. If you are not open to it (which at first you aren't because they usually come out of the blue) then it can appear as a weird trick. I felt this same way. I used to think, damn, I think of some weird **** sometimes. But then I started to see little glimpses of truth in what I was being presented and I started "listenening" more the next time.

Now this is my experience and who knows what you actually experience? I'm just saying that it might be worth the acceptance of weird occurrences as long as you don't find them at the bottom of a Grey Goose bottle.

Of course we don't hear voices, well, I don't. But it runs along the same lines as the "experiences" that allow me to know it's God "talking" to me. God tells me what to do by what I feel in my heart. That's how I know. If for some reason something in particular is standing out to you, it's supposed to be.

I may get smacked for writing this on Judgement Day, but here, this may help you understand that I can accept others beliefs.

I was wondering about this. I'm not on AIM (or any) and don't have the time to set one up right now.

Okay, I will try to get to it in the thread. Hopefully the (lots of anticipated) back-and-forth won't get too overwhelmingly off topic.

I don't like to lie about these things, what does it accomplish. I was not even going to post in this thread, but then I decided that it was important that people know that this sort of experience is not necessary to believe in God and that not everyone has them.

Sometimes I feel like I am missing out. But I am way too analytical and skeptical about those things. And similar to you I think that if I started to think that stuff popping in my head was something else who knows where it would lead me, and how could I trust it.

For me to have a experience that I deemed spiritual it would have to be very very obvious. But alas, I am still waiting for my burning bush.

41.94% saints on 2p2 and rising.

Erf,

Here is the exchange between us:
Your last reply correctly points out the false dichotomy, or false dilemma (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dichotomy for information on this logical fallacy) that I presented. I put two suspects on the witness stand, when in reality there could have been more.

Mild False Dichotomy Example:
Do you want to go to the movies or have dinner tonight?
You might want to do neither of these things. Notice how my question doesn't give you that option. Mild false dichotomies are easy to point out and speak up against.

Extreme False Dichotomy Example:
You're either French or German. If you can prove you're not French, you must be German.
This version asserts that you're German without providing any evidence for your nationality. Extreme false dichotomies tend to be more complex and harder to spot. They're also more dangerous because they arrive at a truth that isn't necessarily true.

My murder trial is an example of an extreme false dichotomy (in this case, if one witness is innocent, the other must be guilty). Clearly though, as you pointed out, you don't have to be guilty here. No evidence has been supplied towards your guilt.

This is the same logic you applied in your first statement of our exchange. "Because if there's spirit life then there must be God right?" You can't just have God (or the Christian God to be more specific) win the claim to spirit life by default without supplying any evidence for it.

And this is the same logic creationists use against evolution. "If evolution is false, the Christian creation story must be true." That's clearly not the case, as there are other creation stories both inside and outside of Christianity, and there are also other possible explanations outside of both evolution and religion. Disproving evolution would provide no evidence for the truth of creation, just like the other witness's alibis provide no evidence for your guilt.

Ok now prove to me what a false dichotomy is.

I’m sorry OH this reply was not called for. You did put in the time to respond so I shall do the same.

So you’re telling me that while walking through the woods if I happen to come across a fallen tree I should not consider that the tree fell? Maybe a beaver from the river two miles up the road came and perfectly gnawed through it as to appear as though the tree innocently fell?

If I’m hunting and I see deer tracks I should not follow them because there are other possibilities as to how those tracks appeared? Maybe someone strung a tightrope across two trees and walked across it while pressing imposter tracks into the ground in attempt to mess with hunters?

Tell me what you think OH. You’ve stated that although the Christian God is unlikely, you believe it’s likely that a God exists. So, if this were true would you say that this God is “probably” responsible for spirit life? Or does that make no sense to you at all?

The only way I can compare my assessment to yours is this:

How likely do you think it is that Allah is responsible for spirit life?

Your answer will be pretty close to mine.

Of course, this is operating under the assumption that "spirit life" exists.

I've probably never experienced anything as interesting or profound as what must lead some people to become religious. However, I can understand how powerful such experiences must be.

One example is when I visited a Buddhist temple a few years ago. I didn't get much from being inside the temple itself or burning incense, apart from a vague feeling of humility and respect.

Wandering around the grounds in silence, though, looking at the carp in the pond and flowers floating on the surface, I felt a great amount of peace and a disconnection from my earthly worries. My thoughts were more spiritual in the deist/wonder at the world sense, along the lines of 'isn't it amazing that I'm alive right now and able to appreciate this'.

I didn't attribute this to a higher power: I could see, and still see, an almost religious beauty in evolution, and how lucky I am to be alive at a time when we're beginning to understand it. You could explain to me the scientific rigmarole of the selection pressures that lead to particular traits in those carp and flowers and I would probably find it just as absorbing, fulfilling, and indeed spiritual as you find reading the Bible.

To live in a world solely of words, there would be no spiritual life. Like a computer, fill it with data, and only data will come out of the computer. Spirit life is not a life that words can describe.
I know this sounds empty before someone tells me that, I offer myself to say it.
Yet a spiritual life is the completeness of the person who is in touch with it. Not solely glimpses but is in touch with what there is. What is this mysterious is? Is nothing and everything and when one can comprehend that then they are leading a spiritual life.
Call it love, call it divine energy call it what you want, you will never see it but if your able to feel it you will know it.

Thanks for responding Funology, I was really curious to what you meant in your first post.

To me, this is dead on what is meant by "God reveals himself in nature and through conscience". Now you can take it one of two ways I guess. Either Man has come to the conclusion there's a higher power because of these feelings, or, there really is a higher power and experiences like yours are how he "reveals himself".

I think what you described is the essence of the Spirit, if you will. It's the core of what religion tries to "teach". For that moment in time you felt an unworthiness to the laws of nature and an appreciation to the gifts you're given. If Man were able to get to the roots of God, I think this is all he's asking for.

I don't know why but I feel compelled to answer this.

To be completely honest with you, I don’t think Allah is one bit responsible for any of this. In fact the only possible scenario that I see responsible for life is the Christian God. And yes I’ll admit that it’s because Jesus is the only one that I know about. I don’t know squat about Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, or any other religion. I understand (really I do) that if I were born in the Middle East there’s a good chance that I’d be Muslim. But I wasn’t, I was born in the US and my life just so happened to end up this way so I have to look at the facts that I do have.

I’m done trying to convert people and part of that reason is because “I” don’t want to be converted, so how is that fair of me to press my beliefs unto others? I’m even done saying that Christianity is the only way. And yes, it’s because I “think” that there are others who feel just as strongly as I do but about a different God.

Knowing how I used to live and knowing the person I used to be is great evidence for myself that a higher power is within all of us. Maybe some have come to this conclusion on their own but not me, I was taught this from the experiences I have through seeking God. Maybe the solipsistic view isn’t so bad. I have all of these outside influences trying to sway me this way and that just to see how far I’ll bend. But in the end, it really does have to come down to what I do know, and how loyal I am to the truths in my own life.

I was going to say this but since you went and posted the picture....

Shrooms and weed. All natural.

Part of me thinks that Gods intent "on the third day" was for them to be used as they are. With respect, of course.

And on that note.. I don't think it's such a coincidence that we know of these plants. Did Man really eat and smoke every kind of living organism on the globe?