And can't seem to find your way out. Its not an emergency and some of your days are actually pleasant. But there is little doubt you would be happier if you could get out of there. If you don't, things will surely get worse and you will eventually perish in this wilderness.

Along comes someone who tells you he knows the way out. All you need do is follow him. He beseeches you to do that. And he provides reasons to believe him. But you don't. Not because you doubt his sincerity. You can see the pain in his eyes when he sees your suffering. Its just that you are skeptical that he knows better than you how to get out of there. After all you are a smart guy and have been studying the terain and you think you may yet find greener pastures on your own.

The fellow with the kindly eyes hopes he can change your mind by telling you that if you follow him he will not only lead you to a better life but also to a place where your consciousness will continue even after death and you will forever be blissfully happy. Certainly a better fate than perishing in the wilderness.

But his words fall on deaf ears. In fact they add to your sense that this nice man is too eccentric to believe. So you VERY NICELY send him on his way. And he reluctantly leaves you. Off in the distance you see him approaching others in the wilderness. Some follow him. Some don't. And every once in a while he turns around and looks back for a while. He beckons you to join him. He hopes that the fact that you have remained in the wilderness just might make you reconsider. But you don't. Each time he looks back you wave him away. You are not swayed by the fact that it obviously makes him very sad for you each time you demur.

You never change you mind and you never escape the wilderness. And your meaningless life slips away. As it does you probably ponder what it would it would have been like if you followed that kindly old man. What are those who did follow him experiencing now? You are not sure. The one thing you are sure of is that as he thinks of you drifting into nothingness he is weeping for you.





Ooops. Sorry. I got that last paragraph wrong. That fellow really did save many people from the wilderness. And gave them blissful life after death. And he is still with them now. But at the moment of your death he says to his followers, "Excuse me, I have to leave for a moment. I've got to make sure that the guy who didn't come with me doesn't just perish. I need to make sure that the motherf...er comes back to consciousness so that that I can torture him forever. Him not being here with you guys right now is not nearly a bad enough consequence for him turning his back on me."

well i'd have to say that guy in the woods doesn't sound very forgiving or loving. in fact he almost sounds evil and sadistic but what do i know.

5 good paragraphs itt.

David,

Is this hypothetical really necessary to illustrate the tired "How can an all good, all loving God send people to Hell for eternity?" argument?

And I reject your premise that Hell constitutes "God torturing someone forever." Little devils poking people with pitchforks aren't on the Lord's payroll. Rather, Hell is understood as eternal separation from God, the ultimate source of life and love. Willful separation from God results in eternal misery, not on account of anything that "God is doing to you" but because exclusively of your choice to separate from him.

This should help:

David didn't you just let your skepticism become a stumbling block in your story above?

The funny thing is its the perfect story to illustrate when to repose your faith in God and his divine mercy and lean not on our own understanding.

I think if you truly recognized you were in such a desperate plight then you'd believe the old man. Once upon a time age was considered wisdom and we trusted it almost automatically because age signals real world experience and nothing the man has said has given you reason to think he means you harm. He's like a gift from God so why other than your own dogged determination to not believe in anyone other than yourself would you not listen to him?

True recognition of who we are and our circumstances is exactly how God uses brokenness to reach people. Some people will not come to God until they are driven by circumstances to reach out to him. Very few people are wise enough just to rest in God with confidence from the beginning of life.

Faith is primarily about trusting in God when the going gets rough. Almost blind trust. Because when the going gets rough we usually are like Saul on the road to Damascus: we ARE blind. Then God bails us out by sending someone or something to help us if we will accept the help.

The preceding is incoherent. I'm an atheist and I'm not in misery because of that now, so what would make me miserable in an afterlife? Why would being "separated" from God in an afterlife even bother me, since I can't even understand the Christian notion of God? If I'm in misery in the godless version of the afterlife because it is a dump or somehow unpleasant, then that doesn't absolve God of evil even though it does not involve direct physical torture.

And besides, a big part of who I am (and, therefore, of how God apparently intended to make me) is that I try to acquire knowledge only through the scrupulous use of reason. That use of reason has led me to conclude all religions are completely without foundation at best, and incoherent to the point of being meaningless at worst.

If I'm penalized in ANY way due only to conscientious non-belief, then God is evil, period. Your attempt to absolve God of evil by blaming man's supposed disobedience to him is epic fail.

You're unbothered because your soul dwells within your body. After death, your body and soul are separated. Think of God as the oxygen your soul needs to breath. If you willfully separate from Him, of course your soul will be in anguish.

Only God knows your true intentions. If in the deepest recesses of your heart you find it impossible to believe, God probably understands and won't hold you accountable. That said, I think atheists of this type are unquestionably the exception and that most have alterior motives for their disbelief (i.e. to justify sinful life choices)

What is epic fail is your attempt to whine your way out of Divine Justice. If you concede the possibility of an all knowing, all powerful Creator who knows our every thought before it happens, you really think *your* opinion of evil carries more weight than His? What is Evil is the rejection of salvation from a God who cherishes his creations...if you value your pride to the level where it necessitates that you permanently decline such an offer, then you deserve Hell.

"I reject your premise that Hell constitutes 'God torturing someone forever.' Little devils poking people with pitchforks aren't on the Lord's payroll. Rather, Hell is understood as eternal separation from God, the ultimate source of life and love. Willful separation from God results in eternal misery, not on account of anything that 'God is doing to you' but because exclusively of your choice to separate from him."

Are you saying: God didn't create Hell, it just happens to be there. God is willing to save you from spending eternity there, but you need to deal with God the way he wants to be death with. If you reject that, then he's not going to save you from Hell. Doesn't matter if you are Einstein or Mother Teresa or a doctor without borders, to Hell with you.

And are you saying that if I decide to not help someone drowning in quicksand, and the reason I decide to not save him is because he is not Christian, it is important that I did not create the quicksand nor am responsible for him being in it? Are you saying that this mitigates my obligation to try to help him?

God is the infinitely good and merciful Father. . . . But . . . eternal damnation or hell. . . is not a punishment imposed externally by God but a development of premises already set by people in this life. 'Eternal damnation', therefore, is not attributed to God's initiative because in his merciful love he can only desire the salvation of the beings he created. In reality, it is the creature who closes himself to his love. God's judgement ratifies this state."

Exactly. God has the power to be infinitely good and merciful. But he chooses not to. He chooses to allow eternal dammation to those who don't deal with him in the manner he deens fit. Indeed, he ratifies this state by allowing eternal misery to billions of people.

Suppose you're offering a stick to save said hypothetical individual from the quicksand. Said individual steadfastly refuses to grab it, despite your repeated requests that he does. Individual perishes. Are you at fault here Andy?

"Only God knows your true intentions. If in the deepest recesses of your heart you find it impossible to believe, God probably understands and won't hold you accountable. That said, I think atheists of this type are unquestionably the exception and that most have alterior motives for their disbelief (i.e. to justify sinful life choices)"

My sense is that rather it is the religious, not the atheistic, who have ulterior motives for their belief: it justifies their behavior by defining the biggest sin--the one that is unforgivable in God's eyes--as rejection of God. Since they are not guilty of this sin, they will be forgiven.

God's infinite mercy is perfectly consistent with the notion of Hell. Because it is a choice and He respects our free will. These preposterous arguments effectively amount to "I want to reject God, yet it's pretty f'd up for me to suffer eternally for it." It's like saying, "I reject the idea of gravity, so it's pretty unfair for me to jump off a building to fall to my demise." In every area of life, choices have consequences. Why should this differ with respect to our eternal salvation?

God has the power to rescue him from the quicksand whether or not he accepts the stick; I do not. I do all that I can to help him; God does not.

One can make a case for not helping the individual. Suppose it is Hitler and if we let him perish, millions will survive. But to refuse to help a doctor without borders because he is not a Christian?

God cannot be infinitely merciful is he does not do all he can to prevent eternal hell for all of his creations. If he respected my free will, he would respect my decision to not revere or worship him. He is denying my free will. He is saying I don't have the choice to live a good and moral life deciding for myself what constitutes good and morality without doing it the way he wants it done.

"you really think *your* opinion of evil carries more weight than His?"

What happened to free will?

You're right, I suppose if God wants to save every last one of us he does have that power. But, for reasons that are His own, he chooses to constrain that power with human free will. As to the last point, of the "doctor without borders" being SOL, I reject that idea firmly. I explore these ideas thoroughly in in this thread where I explain who will likely attain eternal salvation. (where incidently David has yet to post even though he's incredibly fond of the Heaven/Hell question).

"What is Evil is the rejection of salvation from a God who cherishes his creations...if you value your pride to the level where it necessitates that you permanently decline such an offer, then you deserve Hell."

I can see why David deserves Hell. He is very smart, brilliant, surely he should be able to figure out God's intentions and requirements.

But what about me? What about the other math-challengeds like me? We're in the majority. The vast majority. How does God expect us to figure things out? Left to our own devices, we'd still be living in caves. Surely an all-knowing merciful God would see the injustice in holding me to the same standards as a Sklansky.

It's still there, and it's his choice to feel that way. I'm simply saying God knows better.

I see that you reject the argument that only Christians get to Heaven. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe you are in the minority, among Christians, on that point.

I state repeatedly that I can only speak as a Catholic Christian, and as such do not defend the views of Fundamentalist Protestant types when they diverge from my beliefs. So if this puts me in the minority, than so be it.

I think the essential difference in the Catholic/Protestant approach is that Protestants argue a pre-death conversion is necessary for salvation, whereas for me, in the case of the good "doctors without borders" muslim/buddist/whatever, conversion at the moment of death suffices.

A+

I'm not in heaven now. My soul has breath now. Ergo, my soul does not need to be in heaven to have breath.

Morality isn't something I have an "opinion on," it's a property of me. If God created me with a fundamental moral sense different from his own, well, so be it.

The point is, you may call cruelty and brutality moral or just, but you cannot call it benevolent. If it is possible for God to be less benevolent than he is, then God is not perfectly benevolent.

It's a matter of logic as much as morality. The fact that your God is hostile and horrifying is just a PR benefit (for atheists in developed countries, and for Christians in underdeveloped countries).

Did Andy create the quicksand? Did Andy create the individual? Did Andy lead the individual to the quicksand? Does Andy have any possible recourse but to let the person die?

Okay, great, now let's try the same questions with God.

Are you perfect?

If not how can you presume to question or judge the actions of a perfect superior being?

Don't our minds prove that they are "fallen" or imperfect?

What if it was a matter of self-respect for God to work with us on our fallen terms because his image was at stake and/or he couldn't allow Satan to win by blotting us out?

We are a part of God's creative scheme. Does he have to scratch the entire plan just to please Satan? Would scratching us out have led to a 1-0 scenario in favor of Satan?

Can the ultimate in good: Pure Holiness ever give ground to evil?

Would Pure Holiness remain Pure Holiness if it gives in to evil?

Did you ever think of any of those questions?

"Are you perfect? If not how can you presume to question or judge the actions of a perfect superior being?"

But doesn't God want me to judge him? Hasn't he given me free will so that I can examine the evidence and then decide whether or not to accept him? If I accept him, he grants me evidence to Heaven, but if I reject, he lets me go to Hell.

Or do I have thing wrong? Are we just supposed to accept without presuming to think or judge?