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Richard dawkins vs god who wins?( Be prepared to read or dont click)

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09-19-2009 , 10:08 AM

#26

Eddi

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Quote:

Originally Posted by BartJ385

And there he goes again ...

As I see it, we are pretty much witnessing the end of religion; by the end of this century, it will have all but vanished, maybe except for the belief that God set the universe in motion bus hasn't interfered since.

But thanks to people like Eddi, the process will take a lot longer than it has to.

lol, please tell me how to make the process quicker, I'm quite eager to learn the errors of my ways and correct them

fwiw I understand perfectly well that the religious nuts here will not give up their delusions no matter what and all the arguments are solely for the benefit of the undecided

edit: also, that viewpoint of religion dying out really soon has been around amongst the intellectuals of 200 years ago as well

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09-19-2009 , 10:21 AM

#27

BartJ385

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Eddi

lol, please tell me how to make the process quicker, I'm quite eager to learn the errors of my ways and correct them

Theists are not born theists; their surroundings made them theists. That is why it takes them a lot of time to give up a believe that was part of them for so long. Meeting condescending atheists does not help in that situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eddi

fwiw I understand perfectly well that the religious nuts here

qed

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eddi

all the arguments are solely for the benefit of the undecided

but you achieve the opposite: "if atheists are like eddi, why would I want to be one?"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eddi

edit: also, that viewpoint of religion dying out really soon has been around amongst the intellectuals of 200 years ago as well

But only now we live in the era of the communications revolution; you may look it up on the internet.

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09-19-2009 , 10:25 AM

#28

Splendour

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Eddi

No the religious people won't give up their beliefs (its beliefs not delusions) because they won't call God a liar.

Once God has proven himself subjectively to you objective proof is just icing on the cake. And we have tons of objective proof. Its just God likes to work from the inside out. He's building us into a spiritually connecting body after all.

Most probably the fact that Christians will be spiritually connected is exactly why paradise will be possible in the New Jerusalem. It won't be all about "me" then.

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09-19-2009 , 10:33 AM

#29

Eddi

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Dear BartJ385,

I understand you'd rather I was less condescending (which is likely a bad trait of my character) and that in your opinion would cure the world of religion faster. Please show me how you'd treat the above Splendour post and his musings on objectivity, subjectivity and god

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09-19-2009 , 10:42 AM

#30

BartJ385

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Eddi

As I see it, there are three kinds of people: 1) theists who have no doubts, 2) theists who do have doubts, and 3) atheists.
Getting from step 1 to step 2 is something that everyone has to do on their own. You cannot speed up that process, so leave group 1 alone. And don't worry - group 1 can't do anything to 'reintegrate' group 2.
You should also leave group 2 alone unless they themselves want to talk about it.

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09-19-2009 , 10:49 AM

#31

Eddi

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Do you recommend I simply ignore it when they write nonsensical things about science and life? You might notice that I almost never get into purely religious arguments (e.g. wtf is omnipotence for god and that type of stuff), only ones which are related to real life.

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09-19-2009 , 11:13 AM

#32

NicBet

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Couldn't agree more with Eddi (haha your location details are awesome btw). But yeah I am sick and tired of people talking about atheists in a bad manner especially when it comes to the question of "Where do they get their morals from?". To be honest, the so called morals religious people get from their respective bibles may be correct but it definitely doesn't mean it was them that invented morals and having a moral code it just means they were the first people to write it down (at least that people know of).

And to add to this a fact I love so much to mention. America (a Christian nation) has a much much higher crime rate than any Scandinavian country (where most people aren't religious). Of course I am aware that there is no direct correlation, as Scandinavia has a much higher standard of living, but still nice little fact to mention!

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09-19-2009 , 12:07 PM

#33

Into2ndWind

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Eman6969

Richard Dawkins is the world’s chief apostle for atheism and has been Professor of the Public Understanding of Science at Oxford University since 1996. In his 2006 book The God Delusion, he labels God and belief in God as delusions. Dawkins is a gifted writer, and his position at the leading university in the English-speaking world gives him great prestige in intellectual, cultural, and political circles. His atheism is fierce. The jacket of The God Delusion calls the God of the Old Testament “a sex-obsessed tyrant” and the deistic god of the 18th century enlightenment a “more benign (but still illogical) Celestial Watchmaker.” Belief in God, says Dawkins, subverts science and knowledge, breeds ignorance, foments bigotry, and abuses children. All this happens for the simple reason that God is a delusion. Not only are “fundamentalists” unintelligent for “know[ing] they are right because they have read the truth in a holy book,” but even moderation in faith, says Dawkins, “fosters fanaticism.”

There are plenty of intelligent answers to Dawkins’ contentions about life, history, science, ethics, and God, as well as to his general crusade against all things religious and, particularly, all things Christian. But what does the Bible say about people like Dawkins and the arguments he proposes? The Bible is just as firm as Dawkins in its assertions about God and man. Psalm 14:1-3, for example, says “The fool has said in his heart, ‘There is no God.’” Fools who deny the existence of God are corrupt and vile, and so are their deeds. Because their understanding is also corrupt, they do not seek after God.” Note that the Bible and Dawkins are directly opposed to one another. Dawkins says there is no God, and people who believe in Him do terrible things. The Bible says there is a God, and it is rather the people who deny Him who do terrible things. Further, the apostle Paul declares that the reason people who deny God can gain and maintain such large followings, as Dawkins has, is because the human race in general is lost in sin and self-delusion and seek after those whose rhetoric reflects the same. Those who deny God follow eagerly after Dawkins and his ilk because they have hatred for God in common (2 Timothy 4:3).

The Bible sees the denial of God as the true delusion, and this delusion extends to the atheist’s view of humanity as “good,” all evidence to the contrary notwithstanding. A sober assessment of human beings recognizes that we lie, cheat, steal, lust, complain, become embittered and resentful, envy, hate, forget, and are careless, ruthless, disrespectful, and loveless. Not only do we do all these things on a daily and hourly basis, but we do them naturally from our birth. This is what God’s Word means when it says, “There is no one who does good” (Psalm 14:3). This does not mean we never do anything positive, like obeying our parents or giving money to a church or charity. It means that we are so obviously sinful that it is silly to call human beings “good.” Nobody teaches children to lie; they do it naturally. Nobody teaches teenage boys to lust; they do it naturally. Nobody teaches the employee to resent his boss or spread malicious gossip about the coworker with whom he is competing for a promotion; he does these things naturally. Nobody teaches the wife to unjustly criticize and complain about her husband, or the husband to neglect and condescend to his wife; both do these things naturally. Yet in the sixth chapter of The God Delusion, entitled “The Roots of Morality: Why Are We Good?”, Dawkins explains why human beings are good—based on nothing more than his own opinion—despite the fact that there is no God who defines what is good. Again, Dawkins not only directly opposes the Bible’s teaching but he denies what is obvious to even the most casual observer of human nature and behavior.

At the same time, Dawkins titles his ninth chapter “Childhood, Abuse and the Escape from Religion.” There he reports replying to a question about clergy sexual abuse by saying, “horrible as sexual abuse no doubt was, the damage was arguably less than the long-term psychological damage inflicted by bringing the child up Catholic in the first place” (p. 317). Human beings are good, says Dawkins, and even the sexual abuse they perpetrate is better than a religion which tells them they are not good. How he explains the desire for “good” men—priests or otherwise—to abuse children sexually in the first place is a mystery. The Bible, however, does explain it. Men do evil because their hearts are evil (Matthew 12:35), and unless they are made new creations in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17), they will continue to do evil because it is their natural inclination.

The apostle Paul explains the function of law (to convict of sin)—and the salvation from sin—that has come to the world in Jesus Christ. “But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world?...There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God” (Romans 3:5-6, 10-11). The Bible here is saying that it is not the psychological abuse we suffer from religion that makes human beings, including some pastors and priests, do evil things like abuse children. Rather, it is our inherent sin nature that makes us do these things, and it is our insufficient attention to God, to Jesus and Christian truth, and to the Bible’s teaching that causes this behavior to continue even where religious activity and institutions are present. It is not that the idea of God has caused us psychological damage; it is that we are born psychologically damaged, with a natural inclination toward what is evil, and we ignore and reject God, who is the only source of salvation from our sin and psychological damage. Even though we may intellectually accept the idea of God’s existence, when we ignore Him and reject His Word, we are as good as saying He is a delusion.

Merriam-Webster’s online dictionary defines “delusion” as follows: “Something that is falsely or delusively believed or propagated; a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary; also, the abnormal state marked by such beliefs.” The last clause is significant: intellectual and moral delusion have permanent effects on the mind and heart. Believing lies causes the mind to begin to operate abnormally and to exist in a state that is not healthy and perhaps even dangerous, both for itself and for others. This is what the Bible calls “sin,” and a core element of our sin is our delusion that God does not exist.

It should be stated clearly here, given how often atheism presents and promotes itself under the banner of science, that science is not to blame for atheism or any other symptom of human sinfulness. In fact, many great scientists of the past were Christians, believing Jesus Christ to be the representative of God on earth, the same God who made the heavens and the earth and established the laws by which the natural world operates and which scientists investigate. Most of the "giants" of modern science and most founders of hospitals, orphanages, soup kitchens, and every other kind of charity that has humanized and softened a world made inhumane and hard by human sinfulness, were Christians. They pursued rational understanding of the cosmos because they believed God, who has a mind, had created the cosmos according to the principles of rational and mathematical operation that govern the human mind, which is designed in the image of God’s mind.

Belief in God is thus no delusion. It is inherently and fundamentally rational. It is the source of true wisdom regarding why human beings do evil things so often and so naturally, why we can work so hard to be good and still fail, and why Jesus Christ and only Jesus Christ is the spiritual hope for mankind. It also explains why people who believe in Jesus Christ have done so much not only to remedy the effects in this world of human sin, but to scientifically understand this world and to organize and publish the principles of science.

Sources:http://www.gotquestions.org/God-delusion.html

i'll respond for richard.

"0 proof for jesus. Show me some proof"

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09-19-2009 , 12:23 PM

#34

Splendour

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Into2ndWind

i'll respond for richard.

"0 proof for jesus. Show me some proof"

We have plenty but if you're on an automatic predetermined course to deny or disprove the evidence showing our evidence doesn't do any good. You're mentally blocked.

Besides I've introduced lots of thought provoking things and instead of looking at the possible the atheists went totally negative.

Faith is about exploring possibilities until revelation's truth enlightens us.

If your mind is deliberately or permanently closed then its lights out for you. Seems pretty spiritually oppressed to me.
Political agendas tend to close the mind because agendas demand a certain kind of mindset.

In the 2 years I've posted not a single atheist has let even a crack of light enter.

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09-19-2009 , 01:08 PM

#35

NicBet

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Splendour

We have plenty but if you're on an automatic predetermined course to deny or disprove the evidence showing our evidence doesn't do any good. You're mentally blocked.

It is because we are not the ones mentally blocked. And talk about religion and politics and about our mindset? It wasn't because of atheists that Bush was elected

.

And don't expect in the many years to come to "enlighten" any atheists as we are not the ones in need of it.

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09-19-2009 , 02:42 PM

#36

Oshenz11

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Eman6969

The Bible sees the denial of God as the true delusion, and this delusion extends to the atheist’s view of humanity as “good,” all evidence to the contrary notwithstanding. A sober assessment of human beings recognizes that we lie, cheat, steal, lust, complain, become embittered and resentful, envy, hate, forget, and are careless, ruthless, disrespectful, and loveless. Not only do we do all these things on a daily and hourly basis, but we do them naturally from our birth. This is what God’s Word means when it says, “There is no one who does good” (Psalm 14:3). This does not mean we never do anything positive, like obeying our parents or giving money to a church or charity.

There is so much wrong with this essay, but others have dealt with that. (Though it is nice to see Dawkins' name invoked in a thread that actually has something to do with Dawkins.) One point not yet covered does interest me. In another thread, I asked a couple of times if theists believe that the human condition is of lovers of evil with little response. This essay seems to offer support for that view.

It claims that we naturally "lie, cheat, steal, lust, complain, become embittered and resentful, envy, hate, forget, and are careless, ruthless, disrespectful, and loveless." (Need I point out that I disagree with much of this list?) On the other hand, they did manage to come up with a list of positive actions by humans - "like obeying our parents or giving money to a church or charity."

Is this a fair summary of how Christians or other theists view humanity? I keep asking cause this is so far removed from my life experience that I find it very hard to believe. But if it's true, it's true. So, is it?

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09-19-2009 , 03:24 PM

#37

Eddi

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Splendour

In the 2 years I've posted not a single atheist has let even a crack of light enter.

Yet somehow that fact does not make you doubt your beliefs even a little bit? Hmm...

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09-19-2009 , 04:57 PM

#38

Splendour

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Megenoita

Dawkins says that he rejects God based on personal moral beliefs, not based on empiricism or the search for truth in and of itself (he uses these as secondary reasons). For instance, he said that it is scientifically feasible (and perhaps probable based on biochemistry evidence) that some higher form of life seeded the earth to create life, yet this cannot be the God of Scriptures because he hates the God of the Scriptures

.

I like that Dawkins seems more honest and straightforward than most like him.

I find it ironic that in order to condemn God you must assume at least part of His moral system. Otherwise, you have no objective basis from which to judge. Every man believes in absolute right and wrong because it is written within him, as God said that He did on purpose so that we would know Him instinctively, being made in His image. Yet we suppress this so that we can choose to do what we want, and we pick and choose what part of His moral code we will take for ourselves, and we usually condemn Him with the other part

. But in our condemning we prove God true and ourselves a liar, because we need His authority, His foundation, in order to claim moral absolutes in the first place.

M

Well stated. Thanks for this post.

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09-19-2009 , 05:20 PM

#39

Oshenz11

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Megenoita

I find it ironic that in order to condemn God you must assume at least part of His moral system. Otherwise, you have no objective basis from which to judge. Every man believes in absolute right and wrong because it is written within him, as God said that He did on purpose so that we would know Him instinctively, being made in His image. Yet we suppress this so that we can choose to do what we want, and we pick and choose what part of His moral code we will take for ourselves, and we usually condemn Him with the other part

. But in our condemning we prove God true and ourselves a liar, because we need His authority, His foundation, in order to claim moral absolutes in the first place.

M

Megenoita, can you explain "His foundation", needed to claim moral absolutes, and how these are used by Dawkins?

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09-19-2009 , 05:26 PM

#40

rizeagainst

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Splendour

I've never met anyone that doesn't match the sin condition profile.

[ ] thou shalt judge

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09-19-2009 , 05:27 PM

#41

vhawk01

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Originally Posted by Splendour

Well what was the first thing humans did when they learned to split the atom?

You think God really wants us to have access to every scientific principle with our current sin nature?

Did he want us to have access to the bomb? You are a bit confused here. Either he gave us the ability to discover atomic energy and thus Hiroshima, or he knew we weren't ready for it but couldn't stop us, in which case your post is irrelevant because who cares what he WANTS us to have access to, apparently he cannot stop us.

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09-19-2009 , 05:32 PM

#42

rizeagainst

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Splendour

Faith is about exploring possibilities until revelation's truth enlightens us.

Translation: Faith is about looking only for things that support god, and forgetting everything that contradicts him.

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09-19-2009 , 05:38 PM

#43

rizeagainst

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Splendour

Dawkins/Into2ndWind: 0 proof for jesus. Show me some proof.
Splendour: You're mentally blocked.

Do you see why no rational person here takes anything you say seriously?

Every single response you make is a non sequitur. Have you learned what that is yet?

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09-19-2009 , 05:44 PM

#44

Splendour

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Quote:

Originally Posted by rizeagainst

[ ] thou shalt judge

I can observe partial dysfunctionality without passing judgment on it.

Its simply the human condition.

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09-19-2009 , 05:45 PM

#45

rizeagainst

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Splendour

Opposites bounce off each other and create motion/life.

Yeah guys, opposites bounce off each other and create life. Oh, and incidentally, did you guys know that the word motion and the word life are equal and interchangeable?

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09-19-2009 , 05:46 PM

#46

tame_deuces

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Originally Posted by Megenoita

. But in our condemning we prove God true and ourselves a liar, because we need His authority, His foundation, in order to claim moral absolutes in the first place.

M

Amusing, personally I find it ironic that your logic imples that any religious moral system is a valid ground for judgement over the Christian God.

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09-19-2009 , 05:47 PM

#47

rizeagainst

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Splendour

I can observe partial dysfunctionality without passing judgment on it.

Its simply the human condition.

Cool, so christians can say this while judging anyone and anything, all the while telling everyone else not to judge. Or do you want to add more qualifiers?

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09-19-2009 , 05:49 PM

#48

Splendour

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Originally Posted by vhawk01

Unless we're in a new stage approaching the completion of human history.

We sat rather quiescent under Catholicism for 1500 years.

Then the Protestant Evangelism got really active with seeding the world with the word while at the same time the Catholics were running all over other parts of the world colonizing.

I don't intend to argue Church abuses because as I've said in the past a Church can be compromised by evil spiritual forces and I think the battle between good and evil in this world constantly seesaws by individual and/or administration/generation. Besides God can turn even evil to good use.

Also God could be spiritually harvesting people at death. (Check the bible for the angels with the sickles image.)

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09-19-2009 , 06:07 PM

#49

Splendour

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Quote:

Originally Posted by rizeagainst

Cool, so christians can say this while judging anyone and anything, all the while telling everyone else not to judge. Or do you want to add more qualifiers?

Judgment is one of the most complicated areas because in the bible judgment sometimes equals spiritual discernment to avoid evil. We still don't have to condemn anyone.

Besides spiritual discernment that the bible calls judgment is exercised differently by believers against other believers and against non-believers.

Read 1 Corinthians 5

Matthew Henry's Commentary reports the following:

Commentary on 1 Corinthians 5:1-8
(Read 1 Corinthians 5:1-8)

The apostle notices a flagrant abuse, winked at by the Corinthians. Party spirit, and a false notion of Christian liberty, seem to have saved the offender from censure. Grievous indeed is it that crimes should sometimes be committed by professors of the gospel, of which even heathens would be ashamed. Spiritual pride and false doctrines tend to bring in, and to spread such scandals. How dreadful the effects of sin! The devil reigns where Christ does not. And a man is in his kingdom, and under his power, when not in Christ. The bad example of a man of influence is very mischievous; it spreads far and wide. Corrupt principles and examples, if not corrected, would hurt the whole church. Believers must have new hearts, and lead new lives. Their common conversation and religious deeds must be holy. So far is the sacrifice of Christ our Passover for us, from rendering personal and public holiness unnecessary, that it furnishes powerful reasons and motives for it. Without holiness we can neither live by faith in him, nor join in his ordinances with comfort and profit.

Commentary on 1 Corinthians 5:9-13
(Read 1 Corinthians 5:9-13)

Christians are to avoid familiar converse with all who disgrace the Christian name. Such are only fit companions for their brethren in sin, and to such company they should be left, whenever it is possible to do so. Alas, that there are many called Christians, whose conversation is more dangerous than that of heathens!

The bible:

But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

[12] For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

[13] But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.