"Originally Posted by Original Position
I think we have different conversational goals"

This may be the case. I just want to discuss morality and religion on a board which purports to be for that purpose.

No way that 3 could get you sacked. That would give you grounds for a lawsuit. 2 is very unlikely except in certain jobs. 1 might not get you sacked again depending on the job but I have been drug screened in the hiring process I would not have been hired if I had failed. 4 without a doubt. You use company resources in any way to access pornography and you are in deep sh*t. I have seen that happen.

Prostitutes and swingers wouldn't last long in our office. Nobody would agree to work with them for starters (or it would be bit worrying if they did lol).

I said:

My point was that areas where religious influence has declined still at this point retain the ethical traditions developed under the influence of religion. It will be years before one can really tell what the influence of religion has been.


Statistics have to be analyzed with some thought. How did the rate of violent crime compare before the decline of religion? What about other kinds of crime, white collar crime for example? How does wealth compare? Does violent crime correlate with wealth? Does a secular bias correlate with wealth? Could the correlation be the result of a parallel effect rather than causation? What happens when the impoverished lose religion?

Thanks, but I will make my own arguments to support my points.

I doubt asdf thinks those things are moral. The contradiction of " X is immoral" is "X is not immoral", not "X is moral". I imagine that, if asdf thinks those things are "not immoral", he considers them to be outside of the scope of moral statements. To be more specific, I think asdf believes moral statements to be about harm/benefits to conscious creatures (or something like that) so you either have to show that his moral system is flawed and he should adopt a better one, or show that those things are immoral under his own moral system e.g. those things DO cause harm to conscious creatures. Either attack the way the persons beliefs map to reality, or attack the way the persons beliefs map to their worldview; it's pointless to attack a belief for failing to be congruent with a worldview they don't hold. This is pretty similar to what I was driving at with RLK, fwiw.

This is not the case anywhere I've worked, and I doubt anyone else here would agree with you. Surely you recognize how unpopular your Puritan morals are, right? Also, not agreeing to work with someone just because they're a swinger doesn't sound like something Jesus would do.

Have you worked with many "swingers" gangstaman ? Nobody in our office would get friendly with them for fear of being tarred with the same brush.

damnit asdf, i had RLK on the ropes, he was about to admit to being a moral relativist! but no, you had to change the subject to drugs, hookers, and swingers!

Puritan morals or gay bath houses? Which is better?

It's funny you didn't hear much about same sex marriage before Aids.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_bathhouse

It seems gays have traded their bath house ways for good old fashioned Puritan monogamy since the epidemic put them and everyone else at risk.

I doubt that in pre-Aids times that the typical male gay cared much for monogamy at all. Doesn't testosterone make some people more prone to wander?

Now that we're all at risk we have to change the social rules to accomodate them? What's the rush? We don't even have the sociological/psychological studies to know whether or not SSM will undermine the larger society in unforseen ways.

Rope a dope.

If he hadn't stepped in you would have been measuring your length on the canvas.

But you also indicated that you think it will be going downhill. I just asked you why you think it is so when the less religious areas seem to be doing better than the religious areas at this time.

I never said anything about causation. You are the one saying that religion is the cause of moral values. In saying that, you are also implying that religion causes better behavior. I just pointed out that there is no positive correlation between high religious activity and low crime rates. The correlation is negative.

It's not?

Your office sounds sad.

Oh and btw, lest we forget, Puritan morals derived from Judaic ones.

The Hebrew word for faith is "shama" and it means both to hear and obey.

Apparently Puritans were better at hearing and obeying than modern day Jews are. Puritans actually thought God knows best. They don't have to object all the time to serve their own motives which might be skewed out of line with reality.

It sounds healthy.

1 in 5 gay, bisexual men in U.S. cities has HIV
http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/...68M3H220100923

It can be dull. Have you worked with many "swingers" ?

Im old and have worked with a lot of people, so most likely.

Fun "fact". One of my friends who swings says swinger clubs are mostly full of conservative Christian types. Which wouldn't surprise me if true.

People lie a lot.

Sounds very Christian. If someone got friendly with a swinger the Pharisees and the scribes would grumble, saying, “This man receives sinners and eats with them.”

What would Jesus think about this?

You can socialize with anyone.

But you can't share their sin.

You can't share the Gospel if you don't socialize with people.

Just like a doctor/nurse can't treat you if they won't see you. They still have to wear gloves and keep themselves sterile during contact and wash their hands afterwards.

Probably more of an exaggeration but i think there is some truth in there.

Yes, any 1 or all 3 of your examples could be lying: you, your friend or the Christians claiming to be Christians.

Yes i made it up. Problem solved.

Maybe.

But people misrepresent and misinterpret a lot.

It's even possible there are some naughty Christians. It doesn't mean they represent all Christians.

There's a lot of media pressure on people to act like pagans these days. It's subtle and constant and if you don't refer to God's Word on a daily basis you're more apt to misstep.

I find people deliberately blur the line a lot on the poker table because it's getting harder and harder to win. The same thing happens in real life.

It's sad because it degrades the game and it degrades life.

You could respect there pagans ways like the respect you demand for you sinless ways. Nah that wont work.