They would be closer to God.

I would say that an atheist, that does not believe in God and claims to know no God exists, is the furthest away from God and has serious problems. To be quite honest, this person should seek out a priest and if not resolved, medical doctors. They have come to a conclusion without having proof. If they have proof, then I would like to see it.

I know people could say the same about me, however I have circumstantial evidence to back up my claims.

You have really got to quit saying the above. It's reads like you need a tinfoil hat.

As to your claim, I'm assuming you 'know' that Zeus or Bumba don't exist, right? Well, it's the exact same thing when an atheist claims they 'know' the Christian God doesn't exist.

The creation of our universe is still a mystery obv. Science is getting more and more certain of what happened from the big bang onwards, but as to why it happened, or what existed before the big bang, is anyone's guess. Could a supernatural entity or being have created the universe? It's possible i suppose.

As to there being a God, who is even close to resembling the figure described in the Bible or the Koran, who intervenes in our daily lives and is concerned about who prays and who doesn't, who simultaneously gives babies AIDS and helps footballers win Superbowls, is obv complete and utter nonsense.

Good, all that I have to do is show you just how evil the world really is.

"Satan's power is over all the nations of the earth. That could be very frightening when we realize he can influence men in such a way that they are not even aware that they are being influenced toward evil. His power is so extensive that he is over all the nations of the earth. Jesus calls him the ruler of this world" (John 14:30)

Once you believe that there is a devil, it's only reasonable to believe that there is a God.

The thinking here is if we were to find these 2 preachers (two witnesses,) witnessing on their first day, then we could say that we would be around thousand two hundred and threescore days away from the ~End Of The World~

And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

http://www.amazingbible.org/Document..._witnesses.htm

Toohey's or Foster's

You assumed wrong

No, this just won't do. First, you're going to have define what 'inherently evil' is since it's something of a sliding scale. Example: if Jesus stole a single silver shekel I'm assuming you wouldn't label him as evil. How about if he stole two, or twenty, or a million? How about if he told a single lie? How about two, or twenty, etc. 'Inherently' evil is a largely flawed concept when applied to humanity. Now, you may be able to declare certain acts as inherently evil, like rape or slavery (both of which the Bible is rather lenient on), but declaring humanity as inherently evil is a difficult, if not impossible, task.

Irrelevant. You don't just get to pick your favorite deity and declare him the source of what you perceive to be evil acts.

Depending on how you define the Devil, this is a non-sequitur.

From your link:

When this part happens, then you have actual evidence, not before. The fact that two people decided to partner up and preach the Good Word accounts for exactly zero.

[ ] shown you just how evil the world really is.

I'm saying that there is a lot of evil in the world. You and I don't think that people are inherently evil. Where is all this evil coming from? You obviously don't see the atrocities of the world or you don't care.

The Scriptures show that they have the power to shut heaven that it rain not in the days of their prophecy.

There's more to it. You really should research things, before presenting an argument.

Evil is just something, anything, we define as profoundly immoral and malevolent. It doesn't have to come from anywhere, just as 'good' doesn't have to come from anywhere. Humans are neither inherently good, nor inherently evil. We are capable of both.

And to date it's just a fantastic story.

Would you consider it insightful if I offered up a story of a great man named Zork that would, in the future, blot out the sun and mark the end of the world? I'm assuming not, so don't offer up the same to me.

I don't know why atheists want to strive with God so much demanding evidence all the time.

Isn't that a form of rebellion in your own mind?

Read the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5. The meek, the peacemakers, those who mourn, etc. These are all states of mind or being that tend toward being reconciled to God and being open to hearing what He has to say.

I believe if you try to get your own thoughts and mind in alignment with God then He will gradually supply the knowledge to you.

Isn't knowledge in a sense evidence?

You know poker players are competitive by nature but sometimes you have to lay all the competition down and just pay attention to what God is trying to say to you.

Citation please? At least "Pay the Line" can give a reference in a book that billions of people have and is considered "Holy Writ" among many of them, so this isn't even a close comparison.

Who is Zork? Zork ( Wikipedia ) is a computer game based on the Zork trilogy which is influenced by wizardry. Those who do not give up the practice of sorcery or the occult will be thrown into the lake of fire.

Yeshua HaMashiach and Yochanan the Immerser have said: Repent! The Kingdom of Heaven is near!

A billion person delusion is still a delusion

I'm glad the Hindu God is usually considered supra-moral. Makes more sense than having an apocalypse every time some kids are mean or some crazy governor legalizes the gays settling down.

Oh apocalypse is a wonderful idea. It makes everyone sit up and take notice that God is ushering in his new and improved kingdom.

Yes, you are correct: the delusion that Hashem ( "YHWH Elohim" ) is not the Only True "G-d" is held by many, including almost all atheists; however, Zork is not mentioned by anyone in connection with the "Last Days".

Well, you've probably not read the account of Abraham for all its worth: 1) the One True "G-d", Hashem ( "YHWH Elohim" ) is "supra-moral" or beyond ethical understanding as well; and 2) the Son of "G-d", Yeshua HaMashiach also elaborates what is beyond moral standards in his Sermon on the Mount.


1) In Genesis 18 ( primarily vv. 16-33 ), Abraham pleads with Hashem:

Gen 18:23-25 ( CJB )

²³ Avraham approached and said, “Will you actually sweep away the righteous with the wicked? ²⁴ Maybe there are fifty righteous people in the city; will you actually sweep the place away, and not forgive it for the sake of the fifty righteous who are there? ²⁵ Far be it from you to do such a thing — to kill the righteous along with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike! Far be it from you! Shouldn’t the judge of all the earth do what is just?”

Abraham then "haggles" with Hashem so that if merely ten righteous people were found in Sodom, Hashem would not destroy the city; however, the city is destroyed.

Much later in Abraham's life, he is tested by Hashem where the beginning dialogue ( read into the biblical text from rabbinic commentary ) is something like:

Hashem: Avraham!
Avraham: Here I am!
Hashem: Take your son..
Avraham: Which one?
Hashem: Your only son!
Avraham: I have two sons.
Hashem: The one you love!
Avraham: I love them both!
Hashem: Yitz’chak [ "Isaac" ]! Go to the land of Moriyah. There you are to offer him as a burnt offering on a mountain that I will point out to you.

Abraham does intend to do what Hashem asks, but Isaac ( who is willing to be sacrificed! ) is spared when the "Messenger of YHWH" speaks to Abraham just after the knife is taken. I'm quite sure "Isaac is righteous", in the eyes of Abraham. This test was given to Abraham to show that the Messiah Yeshua, the Only Son of G-d, who is greatly loved by Hashem, would be the Righteous One who would take away the sins of the world, by being willing to die for all of mankind. So, yes, if we let preconceived moral standards cloud our judgment about the actions or directives of Hashem, we really don't know what is absolutely best: it is not just possible, but the sovereign will of "G-d" that someone righteous dies to fulfill a great purpose, so Abraham learned that the plans and thoughts of Hashem are much greater than those of men ( no matter how righteous they may think they are ).


2) The common formulation for some of the "completing of the Torah" is found in Mt Chapter 5:

Yeshua states: "You have heard that it was said, ... but I tell you..."

The idea is that not just external adherence to the mitzvot was sufficient, but what is spoken and internal thoughts were judged too! If we are to take Yeshua seriously, then, whatever we consider as "moral" for us is merely a shadow of what is truly righteous: if we were taught to love our neighbor and hate our enemy ( not actually found in the Tanakh, but likely a common aphorism at the time of Yeshua's ministry ), we should consider what is even better: loving and praying for enemies, even those that should persecute us! In other words, suppose we could enumerate some ethical standards in a systematic way ( e.g., as Spinoza had; actually, this is doomed to fail anyway, analogous to Hilbert's program in mathematics ), there is almost always better....until one realizes it's not the "law" or even the "law-giver", but rather the "source" by which all moral beings derive their existence and the only means for humans to be "perfect" ( morally ) is having a close relationship with Hashem ( "G-d" ), through the Ruach HaKodesh ( the "Spirit of Truth" ) by following the Incarnate Word, "Christ Jesus". The ultimate "Torah" ( ~ instruction ) isn't written on animal skins, dead trees, stone or even coming from photons from a mobile device, but it is written in the hearts/minds of those that put their ultimate faith in the promise of the renewed covenant with the "One True G-d" spoken of in Jer 31:33-34.

In a nutshell, this is why atheistic moral standards are inferior to the "standards of Hashem": since for any attempt by atheists in constructing an ethic without considering Hashem, there will always be a better standard.

Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!" But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me." And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)

Moral: Fail to strike a prophet and God sends a lion to eat you.

You must destroy all the nations the LORD your God hands over to you. Show them no mercy and do not worship their gods. If you do, they will trap you. Perhaps you will think to yourselves, 'How can we ever conquer these nations that are so much more powerful than we are?' But don't be afraid of them! Just remember what the LORD your God did to Pharaoh and to all the land of Egypt. Remember the great terrors the LORD your God sent against them. You saw it all with your own eyes! And remember the miraculous signs and wonders, and the amazing power he used when he brought you out of Egypt. The LORD your God will use this same power against the people you fear. And then the LORD your God will send hornets to drive out the few survivors still hiding from you! "No, do not be afraid of those nations, for the LORD your God is among you, and he is a great and awesome God. The LORD your God will drive those nations out ahead of you little by little. You will not clear them away all at once, for if you did, the wild animals would multiply too quickly for you. But the LORD your God will hand them over to you. He will throw them into complete confusion until they are destroyed. He will put their kings in your power, and you will erase their names from the face of the earth. No one will be able to stand against you, and you will destroy them all. (Deuteronomy 7:16-24 NLT)

Moral: God will kill your enemies.

When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are about to enter and occupy, he will clear away many nations ahead of you: the Hittites, Girga****es, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites. These seven nations are all more powerful than you. When the LORD your God hands these nations over to you and you conquer them, you must completely destroy them. Make no treaties with them and show them no mercy. Do not intermarry with them, and don't let your daughters and sons marry their sons and daughters. They will lead your young people away from me to worship other gods. Then the anger of the LORD will burn against you, and he will destroy you. (Deuteronomy 7:1-4 NLT)

Moral: Kill everyone, don't intermarry with other nations.

So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."

Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.

Moral: If God hasn't provided enough virgins to rape, wait by the side of the road to catch more.

Can you explain to me why you cant say the word god?

Edit: mangler obv.

If you use say the word "God" he'll send a lion to eat you and/or rape your virgin daughters?

Ummm scary.

Those are perverted interpretations that fail to understand the intent behind God's directives and how an ancient society that was supposed to be dedicated to holiness was suppose to work. You seem to have no idea at all that people can communicate moral pollution to each other just like a person can pass an illness to another person if the people don't keep themselves in as clean/sterile a state as possible.

I'd seriously think about repenting if I were you and ask God to bless you with a revelation.

Yeah, I dunno, I guess I just prefer morality that condemns rape.

I'm weird like that.

And his priests seem to agree with my interpretation:

Catholic Priest Allegedly Told Child He Was Raping That ‘This Is What God’s Love Feels Like’

Moral: Obey Hashem ( "YHWH Elohim" ).

Some of these directives were given in a situation or circumstances you know little about; for if you did, you might be able to comprehend, but because your ethic does not include Hashem, you do not believe in spiritual beings or principalities of darkness even though they affect you. Hashem could have justifiably wiped mankind off the face of the earth after "the Fall" for man's disobedience. Do you have any idea how immoral human beings are, compared to Hashem's standards? Every thought, word or action will be judged according to the "Word of G-d".

So, how do you even base your moral judgment? Maybe there is something altogether "incorrect" concerning your moral outrage: tell me, are you going to judge the "Logos" or is He going to judge you?


Fortunately, there is one and only one way out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxX3k...ure=plpp_video