Why?

Why do you think we have to do anything? I mean we do but the bible says we water and we plant but God gives the increase.

I take that to mean we're all in his hands. Its people that think they are more important actors than they are.

How do you know that the world isn't progressing along some path that God has determined?

Soooooo... you're expecting to crack open an old history book and you're pissed there's no science in it. Got it.

In other news, today I bought My Life by Bill Clinton, and I could not find any Texas Hold'em advice ANYWHERE. Bill Clinton is obviously full of ****.

Wow, dknightx.... just wow. (and I mean that in a good way.)

You can now in all seriousness claim what I'm pretty sure no one else in RGT (and maybe the world) can claim.

You sir, have won an argument on the internet.

Because it's the right thing to do. If I knew for a fact that you were about to do something next week that would unwittingly kill yourself and family, I would drive out to where you are and do everything I could to stop you.

Non-Christians have a much worse fate. Not only are they depriving themselves and loved ones of eternal life, but you believe that many of them will suffer in agony for eternity. How can you let this happen Splendour? If I really believed what you did, I'd be out on the street with a megaphone and signs trying to warn people of this fate.

So while you and your loved ones are in heaven enjoying eternal bliss maybe with an infinite supply of tea and Drake's coffee cakes, you'll be okay knowing that all those people suffering in hell is because your god didn't take them into his hands? You wouldn't feel the slightest bit bad that you didn't do more to help the ones that lived in your lifetime?

I must be more sensitive than you, because I'd feel guilty and terrible to the point where I doubt that I'd even be able to enjoy heaven.

Because god says it is.

There's so many false assumptions in your post that I'm having trouble responding.

To superimpose your interpretation over my perception of responsibility is rather presumptuous and from my perspective wrong because everyday reality and circumstances is much more involved than this literalist black and white pic you've constructed.

For the most part I now think the atheist fear of hell is an exaggerated one grounded in a poor understanding of the Scriptures and the nature of God and Jesus Christ but I'm reformulating my understanding of hell doctrine right now so I'd prefer it if you didn't assume things or make definitive statements about what I believe in that area.

So have several other theists on this forum. They have apparently realized that its OK if hell is essentially merely the absence of heaven. And that the traditional view makes it a lot harder for them to get their other points across.

Bottom line is that twoplustwo.com has made hell not quite so horrible. What other website can say that?

I'd be interested in your conclusion, can you stop by the hell thread and share?

So I'm wrong to assume that you think heaven is the best thing that can happen to a soul and hell is the worst? Is your interpretation different than this?

I apologize if I was presumptuous, but hopefully you can see why non-believers would think this is a common interpretation for heaven/hell believing Christians. I'd be interested in learning what your interpretations really are.

Oh, and while you may certainly be right (at least in my case), that there is a misunderstanding of scriptures, it is rather silly to to say that atheists have a fear hell. You can't fear something that doesn't exist or don't think is real.

Well I don't know if they're reformulating to win arguments but I doubt it.

I'm going to have to reconsider just from information overload from all of the theist viewpoints on here. Not that any one view has convinced me definitely. I've kind of low prioritized it because other questions have intrigued me more besides the earlier SMP threads about hell kind of shellshocked me. Not in that it convinced or shook me but I was really unpleasantly surprised at how visceral the posting got about it.

I said that atheists have a fear of hell because they claim that they do or did.

See MelchyBeau's post #34
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/13...=#post16872112

I've heard several posters on here say they had fears of it.

See, now it is statements like this that really piss me off. I am really getting sick of this sort of attitude.

Any time a theist discovers that he is wrong about his theology and reformulates it, it is automatically called an "excuse". And said to be ad hoc. This is just simply not true. I know for a fact it is not true in my case.

I see no strong biblical case for what the traditional view holds. I find it decidedly weak in fact. So why would I just go along with a bunch of people If I see no rational reason for them to be correct?

And isn't it entirely possible that there have been times when the bible has been misinterpreted? In fact don't we have amply evidence that there are many times throughout church history when this has occurred?

We get to be the victim of mental shorthand and the past.

Its easier for them to argue if all theists match a template in their head.

But no person matchs a template and nobody's beliefs are in a vacuum. I revise and refine things a lot so every now and then things will change or sometimes I form an opinion off of incomplete information then later receive more information. Its only natural to re-think things and revise. But arguing doesn't accomodate this propensity very well.

I wasn't including you since your belief about hell predates debates about it on this forum.

Euuuurgh, I'm not just talking about science, I'm talking about reason.

If you really think any reputable history book is similar to the Bible... that's hilarious. Hint: They don't just write stuff in history books and say "yeah this happened, trust me."

If I opened a book that claimed the Nazis rode into a country and took it over on the backs of raptors armed with laser guns, I'd laugh at it. If I open a book where some dude claimed this Yahweh fellow was actually HIM and he raised people from the dead, controlled the weather and walked on water, I'd laugh at it. Oh wait, that one exists.

What, did he tell you this or something? Whenever you're having a beer with him next, can you ask him if he can do something about all the rain in Ireland? It's getting really ****ing annoying.

Why is it so impossible to think when a guy in the past tried to describe the future he was limited by his knowledge and language and concepts of the time of his day.

It kills me that people indict ancient people for not being able to speak in modern language. You wouldn't demand it of an archaeologist so why do you demand it of religion?

That's not at all what's going on there. If a prediction is made that is so vague as to remove any kind confimative reliability, it is the prediction that should be indicted, not the people in general.

I'm not indicting ancient people for anything. I'm indicting the people who are saying the ancient people's writings are actually magically inspired by a god instead of just accepting them as some random ancient writing.

Of course, if there's actually some reason to think it's inspired by some divine being, go ahead and enlighten me.

Have you read the Old Testament recently?

Yes, 2,000 years isn't based on random assignment of a creator to the specific God of Christianity. If you REALLY care about this answer, I mean, really care, and are not just posting on Saturday night b/c you're bored...you should go somewhere, to a library, to a school, and take a year or two to study the Bible and its claims apart from any bias that might be present. Many people come to the Christian God this way. There is REAL prophesy, unified theology that could not be manufactured, there is moral truth unsurpassed. There is the living God.

There is a chasm in your mind between a creator and the Christian God, and this is because you have not studied the claims of what this so-called God has supposedly made in the 66 books of writing known as the Bible. If there is an answer, that is where you will find it. Any discussion on a gambling forum with mostly people who hate God probably wont shed much light, unless you're looking to support what you already believe, not having studied the Christian claims thoroughly. But in reality, there is no such chasm, it only appears that way because people talk a lot philosophically, but rarely (if even on a forum like this) get into incredibly detailed discussion on the teaching of the Bible and how that establishes God as true.

If you are interested, I could do this with you over time, or point you in the right direction. It's not a one-day crusade; it takes effort to hear someone's side on this sort of thing. If interested, feel free to PM me.

neither will listening to advise from a guy who makes claims like this.

The whole "atheists hate God" argument is perhaps one of the most idiotic, and you should be embarrassed.

Good advice. Information is scattered all over the bible and it would really be helpful to see the theology in a unified way.

Last time was probably 10 years ago, so no. Well more like 5 years if you include random Bible study or readings at Church.

Megenoita - I'd be interested in doing what you suggest, but it seems quite time consuming. Specifically what sort of things would I discover that would show the Bible as likely being from God?