that religious people care at all about such earthly matters as the location of their building of worship is testament enough to just how man made their religion is.

There are non-religious people that care about this issue as well, I'm sure.
(atheist who lost family members on 9-11)

And are religious people that do not care about these early matters as the location of a building of worship, testament enough to just how divine their religion is?

No, no, no. We are a nation ruled by laws, and the point of having laws is that we follow them even when the majority doesn't approve of the action. If you don't like the law, then you change it. In this case, the law is the First Amendment to the Constitution, guaranteeing freedom of religion. Since this is a good law (and I assume you agree here), the right thing to do is to follow the law.

As for city approval: first of all, the Community Board, which voted in favor of the Islamic cultural center 29-1, doesn't actually have the authority to make decisions of this sort. It functions more as a neighborhood advisory committee to city government. The Landmark Preservation Commission, which decided against making the Burlington Coat Factory a protected landmark, doesn't make its decisions on the basis of future use and so it would be illegal for it to declare the building a landmark simply to prevent future use. As City Council Speaker Christine Quinn said, "The Commission was correct to deny landmark status for the old Burlington Coat Factory. Any attempt to derail this development because of its future uses would at its core be un-American and a violation of all of our first amendment rights."

What is really ridiculous about this controversy is how much of the opposition comes from people who have never lived in New York. How is it their business whether or not there is a mosque in Lower Manhattan?

Attacking the US was not demanded by the Koran. The politics of the situation can be separated from the religion. There are many Muslims living in America that love this country as much as JoeyDiamonds. That they are of the same religion as the terrorists is incidental. There is no link between the Muslims peacefully living here and those that attacked this country 9 years ago.

So what's the issue then? The terrorists were males, so should it be offensive to build a Male Youth Center there? They were from the Middle East, so would you be against a Middle Eastern Christian church being built there?

The Muslims in NYC do not want to bring America down. They want to peacefully practice their religion here just like the rest of us. Their religious background does not give them ties to terrorism, and I find it offensive that anyone would imply otherwise.

no, but atleast they have a grasp on just how unimportant many earthly matters should be. if there is a god, and an everlasting afterlife, the specific place you worship that god on this earth is utterly trivial.

so...kudos to those theists who get this point.

How is it not about religious freedom? Some people own some property and want to build a religiously themed cultural center. You think that the government should prevent them from doing so because it is a Islamic, rather than Jewish or Christian cultural center. That is a clear violation of religious freedom.

No, it would not be ok. For one thing, you are not allowed to belong to a terrorist organization. But if it were created with absolutely no ties to any terrorist organization, then:

1) It would be legal.

2) I would not support it regardless of where it's built. If they are teaching the values taught by bin Laden, then I think those are poor values, and if not, then they're just using the name to get a rise out of people.

3) It would basically be like the KKK; I want it to be allowed to legally exist, but I would very much hope that it doesn't actually exist.

Muslims or "radical Islam" had NOTHING to do with 9/11. They were framed in the biggest psyop of all time.

This mosque is a sick joke foisted upon us... same as the sick joke installing a muslim/black President so soon after 9/11.

I don't care if you think I'm nuts. TPTB are sick phucks for what they've tried to do the last decade... but I can't say who "they" are on this board - figure it out for yourselves.

The reason why for all our faults this country is a source of hope for what it can be is because of the freedom that we accord even the outrageous. Not that this necessarily is that. There are as many different flavors of those who study islam (the way of peace) as there are different flavors of christians.

National Socialist Party of America v. Village of Skokie, 432 U.S. 43 (1977) Made it pretty clear if it was not already that we accept that even the most outrageous of views are to be allowed the freedom to be voiced. Even the Westboro Baptist Church folks that protest the funerals of American Soldiers is legal. I have a hard time with that one. When I meditate on trying to foster loving kindness for the most objectionable of people I can imagine, they are always on the short list. But even they deserve to air their opinion in a way that does not unduly burden others or incite violence.

On of my favorite forms of protest I have seen in regard to something of this type is in Louisville every year a few KKK members would give speeches on the courthouse steps. Immediately following their police escort away...locals will scrub the steps with soap and water to symbolically prevent the filth from seeping into the marble.

If you feel that strongly, go there and protest while it is built, and as much as you like after it is built. That is how our Republic is supposed to work.

this argument goes along with my freedom of speech allowing me yell FIRE in a crowded theater.

Ofcourse I know this, I was just attacking democracy in general. I agree with you that the 1st Amendment is a good law.

IMO it's perfectly legal here to build the giant mosque. There's just something inside me that says, no this isn't moral, no this isn't good, no this isn't respectful. But that isn't enough reason to violate laws indeed, the muslims should just be allowed to build their mosque according to what is lawful.

It isn't that ridiculous. 9/11 wasn't just a local event. It crossed all world media's, and it shocked many many people. So ofcourse this isn't just a rational discussion, it's an emotional discussion too. So maybe it is not their 'business', but they do have an emotional connection to Ground Zero and the mosque that's coming.

Feel free to respond to my actual statements and arguments. I believe in laws that protect religious freedom. This means, among other things, that city planners should not be allowed to discriminate on the basis of religion in approving permits to build religious centers. You seem to disagree. Please tell me why instead of asking irrelevant rhetorical questions.

Refer to my statement that law shouldn't be greater than what is the right thing to do.

That is perfectly fine, provided there really is a fire. Becoming something we are not because something is offensive is a very dark path we have gone down several times. Surely you don't really want that after some sober thought do you?

Doesn't have to be a fire... i have freedom of speech.

Actually the Koran demands the killings of Kuffars via Jihad. Their role model did the same in Khaybar.

Please please acknowledge that you can not seperate the religious from the political, because Islam's holy books are not just religious, they are political too. Do you agree or not? Does the Koran for example, call for the Jizya? Does it claim for world domination via force?

SO YES, there is a link between terrorists and Muslims, the link is called Islam. Both terrorists as (moderate) Muslims think the Koran is infallible, as Allah is infallible too, thus they agree on both the religious doctrines, as the political doctrines. (of course I acknowledge that there are multiple Islamic denominations.)

And it doesn't matter if all moderate Muslims now seem to not wanting to bring America down, it is about what the Koran/Islam says about politics.

Freedom of speech does not allow you to yell FIRE in a crowded theater. The owner of the theater does not take away your freedom as it is his property, and his right to throw you out.

Not only that, but if you did yell FIRE and someone was trampled to death you could be convicted of Murder 2 for having a depraved indifference to human life.

Ofcourse I get your point. Like Jesus said, my Kingdom is not of this world. So likewise I do not care about earthly stuff, but that doesn't mean there's a strong symbol here. It is not just a building. It's about what is taught inside this building. Ofcourse I acknowledge that people are not guilty until proven otherwise, so let us give them their freedom, but let us keep on eye on what is being said inside this building, and if it violates any laws.

I keep hoping he keeps saying stupid and offensive things to get a rise. You just don't want to believe its for real.

Fair enough. As long as we agree that it would be wrong for the government to prevent them from building the Islamic cultural center, I'm satisfied. As for the something inside you, obviously many people are having that reaction. I'm not trying to deny that they are having that reaction. What I'm saying is that that reaction isn't justification for government action. The reason we have laws like the First Amendment is to protect citizens from those kinds of emotional reactions.

But building an Islamic cultural center in Lower Manhattan is a local matter. It became a larger controversy because demagogues like Newt Gingrich and Sarah Palin made it so in a manner that seems calculated to spark an emotional rather than rational discussion.

Grunch

Maybe you would be happier if you moved to a country where people couldn't just build mosque wherever they wanted.

The fact that you can be prosecuted for cases like that is because our legal code has placed limits on your freedom of speech (slander is another example). Most people think these are justified limitations.

However, I'm not arguing that there should be no limits on freedom of religion. What I'm claiming is that there are no justified limitations that would apply to this case. Since you disagree, please tell me what the limitation is that you want placed on freedom of religion such that it would make it legal for the City of New York to discriminate against Muslims here?

My claim is that following the law is the right thing to do.