+1. Loved his article on how clubs are essentially hellholes.

I dread to even bite, but how close is too close for an Islamic center to Ground Zero?

And while we're at it, how many years must pass for those of you saying it is too soon to build this at that location to support it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZpT2...layer_embedded

I was going to post this in the thread in the politics, but that got closed.

Temecula, California is too close

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jul...otest-20100728

Saudi Arabia also might be too close.

Why is it huge? The opening of a building isnt huge even if it upsets a few thousand people - what's happening in Pakistan is huge. The oppression and years of resentment in the middle east (springing from exactly this type of thinking and response, in my view) that's huge.

It is a run of the mill mosque opening - it's just upsetting some people.
First of all, "the families" are not a contiguous group - some have spoken out in support of the opening (even if the majority are opposed - I presume you dont think the forgiving families should be overruled do you?)

Second of all, the question is how we should respond. Someone wants a mosque, someone doesnt want a mosque - the law says it can be built. Where to next?
You are missing my point - I concede that there will be resentment. My point is how to respond to that resentment - entrench the culture of suspicion, fear and violence by pandering to it or encourage those with negative feelings to realise that targetting these american muslims is not a reasonable nor helpful way to respond to the reprehensible actions of terrorists. (In fact, responding in the way you suggest is exactly what the terrorists would want you to do - you are implicitly advancing their cause, not 'standing up to it' as has been asserted in this thread, though perhaps not by you).

EDIT: To answer your question - it would be wrong. Similarly it would be wrong if you (the US) bombed a muslim nation and they responded by preventing their own christian citizens from building churches.
They clearly are, but presumably you meant that Christian values don't pertain to how we live in this world (?) Irrespective - this is counter to what you've posted before. I'm sure you've expressed the view that being Christian makes you a compassionate, accepting and forgiving person. That Christianity is a path to living a moral life. If that's true then any decision as to how to act in any moral situation is 'lined up' with Christianity.
Here you are tying the acts of the mosque builders with the plane flyers. Is it reasonable for people to kidnap americans overseas on the grounds that other americans did bad things in Vietnam? If not - why is it ok for you to assign responsibility to these mosque builders who have denounced the 9/11 attacks, merely because you deem them 'connected' in some way?
This is a mischaracterisation of my view and an unfair one. I have explicitly acknowledged that I 'have regard' for the families and that I care about safety. I am not making a political-social-religious statement other than expressing the view we should be compassionate and that, in situations like this, it only gets worse if you retaliate against a group at best 'related' to the perpetrators, rather than the perpetrators themselves. As I mentioned in my first post in this thread, the only way out is for one party to forgive - not to extract revenge.

They have a right to object - they are human, many are no doubt still grieving and they have no obligation to put that aside and act rationally or to be forced to forgive and forget. We (the non-families) have an obligation to help them see another way - you portray this as 'whose rights are more important - terrorists or victims' and it's just not like that. The laws guide what should happen (that's what they're for). People will respond however they respond, emotionally, rationally, supportively or antagonistically. What action can we as outsiders take to increase the amount of good in the world?

In my opinion, such things are rarely as simple as "pick a side".
Well I'm astonished. I cannot imagine Jesus picketting that mosque, the idea you think he'd support preventing it and entrenching a culture of fear and retaliation over love and forgiveness is bizarre to me.

Give unto Ceasar - the law says it's OK and you indicated above that you didnt see it as a Christian issue, so your religion shouldn't overrule that.

Great post, bunny.

Of all the crazy things Splenda has said on this site, saying that Jesus would oppose this Islamic center being built has to be the craziest.

Maybe under the OT law, but under the NT? No ****ing way he would oppose it.

You think this isn't about hatred and prejudice? Take a look at that video that was posted of the black man walking through the protest. Tell me what those people said and the signs they posted were just about the noise or the traffic. Tell me that they don't have negative feelings towards Muslim Americans. Go ahead, I'll wait for you to finish watching the video. I'll even sit here while you lie to me.

The reason I speak up is contained in the Keith Olberman video later in this post. It is dangerous to allow this anti-Muslim sentiment to grow. It is dangerous to allow people to think that it's ok. It's dangerous to let it live even while it's still small and no one is getting killed over it. Prejudice is a powerful thing and if I just sit here and say nothing then I'm just as responsible for where it goes next.

I'd rather not have prejudiced people all around me. I'd rather not have to point them out. But there's no way I'm going to stand idly by while they slowly eat away at the foundations of this country.

My parents had a couple (friends that I've known for years) over for dinner the other night and I was there. My dad brought this up for discussion for some reason. The male friend openly admitted that he was against the building because he felt prejudiced against Muslims. I was shocked. My entire argument is based on getting people to recognize their prejudice and then shaming them for such poor values. I had to ignore him and work on the others.

I posted that video in this thread as well, but it's certainly worth a repost. I even quoted the last part he said there. Eh, let me just repost so maybe some will read it:

Preventing this Mosque from being built does not go far enough. Any muslims in NYC should be forced to wear a yellow arm band at all times. Then we should collect these people and tell them they can only live in one part of the city. We will probably need to wall off that part of the city. When it gets too crowded, maybe we can relocate them to some camps.

That's not enough, we have to put them in containment zones to quarantine them, so they don't infect the rest.

Dont forget to burn their infectious book.

If only that were a joke.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPJ9GqwJH34

Reverend Flip Benham: "What we do have is a battle over truth. Islam says that Jesus didn't die on a cross. Islam says that Jesus wasn't raised from that dead. Islam says that Jesus isn't God. We have a diametrical problem here. Islam is lie from the pit of Hell and we need to be able to speak that truth from the corners and the streets and the highways of America."

Anderson: "Would it be alright with you if Muslims came to your house of worship routinely and yelled at you and said you were promoting a lie and all sorts of things?"
Reverend: "They came to my country and smashed into the trade towers and killed almost 3000 people."

Anderson: "Do you believe Islam should be outlawed in the United States? Do you believe that a Muslim can be a good citizen in America?"
Reverend: "I think it'd be impossible for a Muslim to be a good citizen in America because he must swear his allegiance to Allah."

Also not a joke, check out the above video.

"Here, protest in Gainesville, Fl. A local church group picketing a local mosque. This is the same group, they also have scheduled a public Koran burning on Sept. 11"

IIRC, that guy got arrested for possession of child porn.

No dude, it isn't, well maybe to you it always is. You need to back off and look at yourself before you start lumping everyone into the same little pigeonhole. You are just as intolerant as the people you say are intolerant.

Just because someone has a different opinion than you doesn't make them a racist or a bigot, and until you learn that, then you will never have much success in bringing others over to your way of thinking.

Seeing racism and bigotry around every corner is as bad as being a racist or a bigot itself. Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton used this tactic with success for many years until the people and the press just tuned them out for crying wolf way too often.

Meh, I take this stuff waaayyy too serious sometimes myself...

...

I'm so impressed that Paul is taking on his own base in such biting terms.

http://www.ronpaul.com/2010-08-20/ro...he-nyc-mosque/

So when will we start tearing down Catholic churches within two blocks of IRA bombings?

Super analogy, just super. Protesting something to be built > Tearing something down.

Aah yes, the "My opinion is bigoted/racist but don't you dare and call me a bigot/racist."

If you don't want to be called a racist, don't act like one and whine when someone calls you out.

This is just a form of peer pressure on here. One group calling another one by names because they don't agree.

Diversity's root is in disagreements and differences.

What kind of true tolerance is it for you to run over everyone else's opinion because they don't agree with you? You're not even an American...Did you sit in a highrise office on the day of 9/11 wondering if all highrise buildings in the U.S. were under attack because the Pentagon was hit and a plane was down in Pennsylvania? Did you see the planes fly into the 2 towers...I know I did...I had just woken up and walked into the room and the tv was tuned to the news station and I thought it was a war movie on...but it wasn't..it was real...

Reasoning begins by noticing differences then forming opinion. If its no longer legal or acceptable for us to notice them then we can't operate as humans being effectively.

And you have no right to try to force conformity on someone that reasons differently from you.

Also the right to sensitivity of the families of 9/11 preceded the new intents of the ASMA. Why doesn't the ASMA try spending some money to promote peace for the victims families. Show respect to them first....go plant a mosque elsewhere.

What 9/11 charities did the ASMA give to? Did any Muslim organizations contribute to the relief efforts of 9/11? This is not a trick question because I haven't researched it.

But you want to assimilate...try showing a good intent first before you force your rights down everyone's throats.

.

Americans aren't stupid.

We fought a war in Vietnam. The Viet Cong hid among the local Vietnamese populace.

When they tried to locate who the terrorists were they traced them to different places (terrorist cells) throughout the U.S.

No all Muslims aren't terrorists. But you can't easily tell the terrorists from the non-terrorists as they hide among them.

Do you think terrorists in the middle east and protesters run around under scarfs and veils because they mean you well or is it because they are hiding among the locals and want to escape detection? Terrorists infiltrate...

Yep I re-edited it to bigots, it's the same thing but whatever

(+ I said americans who oppose the mosque anyway, not all americans)

So what you're saying is that the mosque has terrorist goals that are unknown to the american government?

No, I'm not saying that.

But American suspicion is justified. This is a faceless guerilla type war the terrorists are fighting. Its like the difference between a Napoleonic battle and the Vietnam War. There is just no comparison between the difference in tactics and trickiness.

Our oceans used to protect us.

Anyone saying blindly let them do whatever is in a "Napoleonic" perspective. But this is not a stand up and you can spot your enemy directly across from you kind of conflict.

This group is fighting against the enemy too. They are our allies.