whats even funnier is that the bible was written by man, after humans had been around for many, many years. Whats so surprising that they developed a religion that reflects man's nature at that time?

When I starting genuinely trying to grown in my faith, I encountered something bizarre. The closer I moved towards God, the more I learned just how far I was from him in my present state. I am soooo far from him its as if I love evil. I don't of course, but relatively speaking I might as well.

I think it's also a reference to how we still seem to pursue sin in our lives even though we don't want to. For example, the apostle Paul was a guy that wrote most of the NT and was ferocious about the gospel, fearing not imprisonment and eventual death. Yet he confessed that he still did what he didn't want to do even thought he knew what he should do, etc. (Romans 7 passages)

And that's Paul who's gotta be WAY stronger in his faith than I am.

I'm quite sure that your "type of experience" is virtually universal among those that are striving to seek Hashem ("God") and explains why many theists (esp. Protestants) believe in the doctrine of total depravity ( even Arminius himself affirmed this ) although Roman Catholicism ( for obvious reasons ) considers the "T" of Calvinism as "heretical". Besides the "Romans 7 experience" in Rom 7:7-25, there is also the "Romans 8 experience" and I can do no better than quote David H. Stern's note to Rom 7:7-25 in his "Jewish New Testament Commentary":

Human failure is also exemplified in the sharp disagreement between Paul and Barnabas in Ac 15:36-41 where they parted company. Of course, "pre-Pentecost", there are several examples among the "faithful": e.g., Abraham's not being entirely truthful about his "sister", Jacob's deceptions, Moses' murder of an Egyptian, David's adultery, and Peter's denial of the Messiah thrice followed by his return to "fishing" in Jn 21.

So the "body of the Messiah" is not made up of "perfected saints", but rather imperfect people ( aware of the "gap" between humanity and the holiness of Hashem ) that are striving to be like Yeshua but in a real sense are "not ready" for the world-to-come. OTOH, consider the challenging words of Yeshua in Mt 5:17-20 to Messianic believers: they are to uphold the Torah.

IMHO, the "world" around us is a very hostile environment to Messianic believers: we have an "imperfect" book called the "Bible" ( okay, some may argue that the Torah is "perfect" ) from which to understand some of the teachings of Yeshua, have some "imperfect" mentors, clergy, theologians and commentaries to study from and live in a "world system" developed against the "true faith". Consider the "Gregorian calendar": in the "English world", arguably each of the days of the week are named after "gods" and the names of the months are either a "god", "pagan feast" or a "number" - quite a contrast to the original Jewish calendar from which to follow proper "holy days". One of the major obstacles for almost everyone is simply the "Western mindset" together with the ideas or concepts "absorbed" from around us; for this reason, it's important to think of Yeshua in his Jewish context and that "Yeshua's ministry" was focussed on the "lost tribes of Israel".

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is what I get when I say I don't want to discuss Scripture...

LT, thanks for the reply. I'm not sure how to interpret: it's as if you love evil, even though you don't, of course. Would you say you agree with the worldview of the human condition, or not? And to say you're not sure is a perfectly reasonable response.

Your point about Paul seems to speak to the conceded aspects of the human condition - humans sin and may be fundamentally selfish. Yes, we do wrong things. We are imperfect. One could even suggest humans are fundamentally evil. I disagree, but probably wouldn't have bothered to object. But lover of evil? That's a much stronger claim, and in conflict with my experience. I am still curious about other Christians' views on this. Anyone?

Oshen,

I think you are right in that "lover of evil" might be too strong a moniker. I'd agree that we are naturally lovers of sin. It's our nature.

For example, I find that I'm doing something and a sinful thought flashes into my mind. Sometimes I'm thinking, "WTF, where'd that come from?" I didn't really want to think that, I wasn't doing behaviors that would lead to sinful thoughts, they just came from my nature.

This is why the cross is so huge for Christians. We are broken at our very essence so any idea that we are going to fix ourselves and attain righteousness in the sight of God is foolhardy. We need God to do something for us to help us in this. That's the cross.

T

Bigpooch...great post.

This is something I've been noticing myself more and more lately, and I haven't yet made sense of it - but I have a feeling it is sensible; I just haven't put all the pieces together yet.

How can someone feel so much love and acceptance from a philosophy which has at its core the notion that you are "broken at [your] very essence."

I know that forgiveness is part of the religion, so people aren't all compelled to commit suicide because of how irrepressibly awful they are deep down, but wouldn't it make even more sense to take as a foundation that we're all okay, just the way we are? (That doesn't mean we can't strive to change, or resist the compulsion to act on things which we think are counter-productive).

I'd much rather see people worship Mr. Rogers than the bible, and I can't understand why historically, in the evolution of religion and culture and society, it hasn't happened.

Ted Haggard is a stand-out example of this. In a world full of non-evangelical Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, atheists, agnostics, and a whole lot of other things, why stick with the one which says that it is a sin to act gay, when you yourself are gay? And then the thing which makes me wish there is a hell, why drag other people down with you, and make other young gay people fear hell (when you are concurrently having methamphetamine sex parties with gay prostitutes, on the side)?

Oy vey.

Charity Navigator will tell you!

I haven't read the thread, I just found time to read your post. I agree, BTW. I also am sure a lot - most - of the Christians who post here do charitable works - but they are following the advice to do it in secret for Heavenly reward instead of getting a lot of positive attention here.

What happens, as far as I can see is this: religion is Big Business. How do you sell your product? Make it better than another's, new and improved. The Giant Semi-Pentacostal, Televangelist, "I started this in my basement/garage/livingroom" churches, that claim they are "independent" are actually a consortium of businesses. And they tell their congregations: GOD WANTS YOU TO BE RICH!

I've been to a few services: here's the pitch - half an hour of why all the other churches are wrong and are judging you (esp Catholic) but we welcome everyone and don't care about your clothes, color or if you have money!

Thirty minutes of hard sell sermon requiring audience participation, selected mini quotes from the Bible saying all that stuff you said in your op.

Thirty minutes of collections and telling you why giving means you have faith and not giving means you don't.

Thirty minutes of "alter call" so if you aren't part of the group you really do want yo go on up there and get the applause and recognition.

It's quite well-done, some adman is raking in a fortune.

Makes me believe in the devil. The surest way to get between a whole lotta people and God, is to make them one of the New Christians. Money+Politics+Media. God help us, all.

Faith is about sacrifice. Suffering is powerfully redemptive. All the really hard things no one wants to talk about. The keys to the Kingdom are acceptance and love and reconciliation and faith and surrender and prayer and trust - hard work. No glamour. No money. No approval. No instant gratification. But you do get joy and certitude and Love.

I guess that's not as simple a pitch as You'll Be More Special Than Everyone Else.

I had a sponsor when I went through the RCIA process to covert to Catholicism and when I expressed something similar, she said she thought of it like being an old log dragged in from the forest and thrown into the fireplace and set alight. It's like the Holy Spirit starts coming in, like the heat, and drives all the worms and bugs and ugly stuff to the surface. The more you become aware of perfection, the more you see your own lack thereof.

But after a while, through the blackened surface, you can see the pure glowing heart of the good wood.

We're all pretty buggy, but in all of us is that bit of good wood, the spark of the HolySpirit that God sets alight -

Made sense to me, anyway.

If they really knew Mr. Rogers, they wouldn't need a Bible. Or maybe they'd finally get what the writings are really about.


I say we declare him Saint Fred right now.

Awhile ago I created a thread where I asked the Christians on this forum how their lives differ from the average non-Christian, if they consider themselves more moral than non-believers, and why they feel that they are more deserving of heaven than non-believers.

The responses were really telling -- a bunch of Christians called me an idiot for even asking my questions, a few more told me that if I understood anything at all about Christianity that I wouldn't ask the questions that I was asking, and a few more went into their usual routine of playing semantic games rather than answering my questions.

The gist of the responses was that belief in Jesus alone is all that is required. There's no need to be a good person, believing is enough to get you into heaven.

To his credit, the only Christian who tried to respond to my questions was Jib.

Unsurprisingly, Pletho was the most antagonistic towards my questions.

^^^ I looked up that thread. Pretty pathetic and sad responses by most.

Hopey, I'm sorry your thread felt unproductive. Forgive me for answering you in this one. Certainly your questions are valid.
(1) My experience as a Christian and trying to compare it to my life before becoming a Christian... is that I can't really remember much about my 'former' life! 'Course, it was the same year that I got married to the woman who led me to Jesus so maybe it's marriage that's causing me amnesia
Is my life different than the average non-Christian? There are some outward differences, of course... Sunday is devoted to church and rest. I don't go out much (but who with wife and kids does?). Most if not all my social contacts are church and family and more church than family actually.
I'm not sure at work that everyone would know I'm a Christian... maybe that's my fault, and partly it's the constraints of work being what it is - I don't see the workplace as being someplace to preach. A few folks would know I'm a Christian just in the process of getting to know them,
(2) Am I more moral than a non-believer? Only by the grace of God (I know that sounds trite, but it's true). Externally I would say so, but God sets a high standard, He looks at the heart as well (motives) and I know that I'm not anywhere near perfect there - or even externally for that matter. That's why I need a Savior in Jesus Christ.
(3) On my own - Not a chance in hell I'm more deserving than the next man with respect to going to heaven.

The way you phrased "belief in Jesus alone" etc. sounds like "easy believism," which means someone claims the name of Christ but their outward (and inward) life doesn't change or reflect His life in any way. Easy believism is not Christian.

The emotional "peace with self" doctrines are promulgated by the mixing in with Eastern philosophies and also Americanized thinking (self-esteem, self-worth, self respect, self-everything) which is due to being so rich and fat. Other countries, such as Argentina, are much like we all should be, of course being at peace with God, but living out their lives in service.

It is not this:

I suppose part of the cause could be the decline of works theology, and the mainstream acceptance of 'justification through faith alone'.

All that does is make works done because we love God and people instead of being done because they will get us into heaven.

Although there are a lot more "fakers" than real Christians, if you visit the poor and widowed, the afflicted, and the churches who take these kinds of people in, you can see Christ Jesus in action.

You do admit to your lack of understanding of the Bible, of Jesus and His ministry, and of Christianity. Seek, and you will find. If you cared to look, you'd find the real answers to these questions and the answer is not that it is not true. The answer is a lack of understanding on your part.

M

Because I believe it to be true that we are all broken in some way. I'm not saying you need to walk around flogging yourself or hating yourself because you are some bad person. On a given day, I basically like myself.

However, the truth is we are all not the people that even we would want ourselves to be much less some religious or moral system telling us what to be. We fall short of even our own standards. Think how short we fall of God's standards if we can't even reach our own. So we need some help here.

So for a Christian, when you start to see this about yourself (and sometimes its no fun), you start to think, "Okay, if I'm not all I should be, and God knows this, why does he still love me and why was he willing to endure the crucifixion?" In this way, you can start to understand what love is on God's level. It's very humbling and uplifting.

The end result is you feel closer to God (since he's helping) and you find yourself wanting to do more of what he wants you to do out of gratitude. You respect God like you might respect some very tough but loving teachers you've had in your past and you find yourself wanting to do better.

Question... If a person truly believed in Jesus and as core to that belief they are admitting that they are a sinner and accep as a gift what Jesus did for them, then would such a person have no regard for being a "good person"?

Is it possible to have genuine belief without a heart that wants to do what is pleasing to God?

of course.

does not satan and his demons have a genuine belief in Jesus and God?

being a good person has nothing to do with whether or not you believe you are a sinner at heart and have accepted the gift of forgiveness and grace from God. In fact this type of "gift" would only encourage poor behavior as there appears to be a much much (exponentially so) worse punishment involved with disbelief as with being a bad person.

Absolutely not.

By belief, I am not referring to his existence. Demons clearly have knowledge of Jesus and God's existence and reference that in their encounters in the NT.

By belief I am referring to believing that Jesus is the way by which you are reconciled to God. I'm not sure that demons even feel they need to be reconciled to God.

Sounds like a cop-out to me.

My point is I do NOT think its possible to have genuine belief and then not care about doing what is pleasing to God.

Let me clarify something (especially for non-believers). By "belief" I do not just mean believing that God exists. Belief involves admitting one's sin, and believing that Jesus's sacrifice atones for that sin.

If you genuinely believe this, then you feel grateful. When you feel grateful, you are incited to worship. When you worship, you are incited to do what is pleasing to God.

T

theres a difference between feeling a need to do something and knowing it. I know McDonalds is selling 10 chicken nuggets for $1.99, but that doesnt compel me to go out and purchase them

In the same way, Satan and the demons all know and believe that Jesus is the way by which you are reconciled to God, they just have no interest in doing so. Personally I would be quite interested in finding out why, im sure they have some dirty secrets about God that He doesnt want us to know about.

If you are going to go back and try to weasel your way out of this one by changing the definition of "belief" once again, then you might as well have stated this to begin with:

"Is it possible to have genuine reconciliation with God without a heart that wants to do what is pleasing to God?"

In that case, then no, since doing exactly what God wants you to do appears to be a requirement for genuine reconciliation. Regardless, if this is true, then 99.9% of Christians do not a have a genuine reconciliation with God and will be joining us heathens in hell.

I'm tempted to derail:

Consider creating this tiny toy universe with tiny toy people which are intelligent and animals and tiny evolution or whatnot. Then consider doing something really cool for them that makes them feel really grateful until the end of their lives (whatever you can imagine).

Would you then feel pleased if they started worshiping you for that favor you did? And would you then feel even better if they did that for all eternity generation after generation?

Maybe we have different pov's, but while I am quite ego-centric at times, I would at least like to think that I wouldn't be happy if they started worshiping me and would do what I can in my power to stop them from doing that and would work on educating them instead (assuming I knew about the worshiping and cared about those tiny people in any fashion). Given that your god is supposed to be so much more better in all senses including the moral one all of this is very contradictory to me.

But then the Abrahamic god and I have very different sets of morals I suppose.

I agree with this, although I am reticent to judge any particular individual as a 'naval-gazer', because God knows i've done enough of that myself.

I'm not sure what purpose the elaborate, rock-based concerts serve, nor do I know why a large ornate building is necessary to worship God. The prosperity gospel appears to directly go against the teachings of Jesus, centering on the love of money. In the prophetic circles there appears to be severe confusion and abuse. Many churches seems more concerned with America than the kingdom of God and service to the poor.

To me, this looks like a church broken and divided by aposty and lukewarm in its love. Is it a sign of the times?

WRT giving away everything, I think the one reference to that is when Jesus is talking to the rich man about what he must do. Jesus told him to give everything away and then his reward would be great in the kingdom of heaven. From the further example of the widow's mite, Jesus makes it clear that its not how much you have, but what percentage you give that determines your reward in heaven. That's what I get there, although it would also make sense that looking after your family and those around you requires that you keep some earthly resources at your disposal, and Paul makes it clear that you should look after your immediate family as long as it doesn't conflict with God.

So, I don't have a perfect understanding, but I think that an average individual who takes care of himself and those around him, along with alms and without living extravagantly, would be obeying the basic meaning, although those who give up all are more highly rewarded.

I don't recall any point where Jesus would urge someone to quit their job as a general rule. Only if called by God to do so, but not to naval-gaze, to work in some capacity for God.

I'm kind of ambivalent towards your opinion - I agree that those segments of Christianity, televangelists and the like, are in many cases essentially con artists, or no better than; but I would see that as one extreme of a spectrum (without wishing to imply that all 'shades' are morally equivalent).

I wasn't really serious when I mentioned 'the guy who quits his job', though I do think it telling that even 'extreme' conversions tend more to consist of people becoming enthusiastic proselytisers than prodigious altruists, or so it seems to me.

LordTiberius said much the same, yeah. I suppose your 'percentage' idea is not an unreasonable interpretation, I've heard variations of it before, but I've always thought it represents a bit of a let-off for the rich - though if the rich gave in proportion to the woman, I'd think it a very good thing. I'm not sure what you mean when you say those who give more 'are more highly rewarded', though - do they get extra Heaven?

Also, as a side note - what the hell is up with Verse 19? And why hasn't Pletho made it his signature?