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just because people died for their beliefs (even if they did) doesn't prove them just because people died for their beliefs (even if they did) doesn't prove them

09-09-2010 , 03:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ganstaman
It's really weird that more than one person in this thread seems to think that many people all over the world throughout history haven't believed in things that are false so strongly that they'd be willing to die for them.
Can you give examples of those people? I'm interested. And don't give me examples of people that are willing to immoral things because of their belief, or killing people, or going into a war. That does not count as 'willing to die for them' as the same way the Early Christians did.

Many of them only had to do a simple thing, give praise to the Caesar. I respect them for not complying and only going for their beliefs.
just because people died for their beliefs (even if they did) doesn't prove them Quote
09-09-2010 , 03:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MelchyBeau
not talking about more modern islam. Talking about people who would lived close to the times of Muhammed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Muslim_martyrs
You can research this but I've heard there were no reports of miracles in Muhammad's lifetime.

They were incorporated much later.

If there were early Muslim martyrs they could have just believed what Muhammad said.

The Apostles witnessed miracles.

But with or without the miracles there was no early spreading of the Gospel by the sword. The contrary occurred: 10 Roman persecutions.
just because people died for their beliefs (even if they did) doesn't prove them Quote
09-09-2010 , 03:51 PM
Quote:
Badí‘ is most famous for being the bearer of a tablet written by Bahá'u'lláh to Nasiri'd-Din Shah, for which he was tortured and killed at the age of 17. The Bahá'í calendar, known as the Badí‘ calendar, was named in his honour.[1] He is also one of the foremost Apostles of Bahá'u'lláh.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad%C3%AD%E2%80%98
just because people died for their beliefs (even if they did) doesn't prove them Quote
09-09-2010 , 03:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splendour
I find martyrdom says something about their commitment and I don't think you commit so strongly to something you lack knowledge about.

You have to wonder why people want to dispute the Gospel when if it is true is so clearly overwhelmingly in one's favor.
The problem is, as pointed out several times, that we have direct evidence that people DO make extraordinary sacrifices for beliefs they have no way of verifying.
Take this guy:
just because people died for their beliefs (even if they did) doesn't prove them Quote
09-09-2010 , 03:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skalf
The problem is, as pointed out several times, that we have direct evidence that people DO make extraordinary sacrifices for beliefs they have no way of verifying.
Take this guy:
Interestingly enough, he was protesting the abuse that Buddhists faced from the christian regime in place in South Vietnam at the time.
just because people died for their beliefs (even if they did) doesn't prove them Quote
09-09-2010 , 04:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skalf
The problem is, as pointed out several times, that we have direct evidence that people DO make extraordinary sacrifices for beliefs they have no way of verifying.
Take this guy:
How do you know he didn't experientially verify his belief?
just because people died for their beliefs (even if they did) doesn't prove them Quote
09-09-2010 , 04:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splendour
How do you know he didn't experientially verify his belief?
Because Nirvana is not reached in this life.
just because people died for their beliefs (even if they did) doesn't prove them Quote
09-09-2010 , 04:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skalf
The problem is, as pointed out several times, that we have direct evidence that people DO make extraordinary sacrifices for beliefs they have no way of verifying.
Take this guy:
How do you know he didn't experientially validate his belief prior to this act?
just because people died for their beliefs (even if they did) doesn't prove them Quote
09-09-2010 , 04:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skalf
Because Nirvana is not reached in this life.
Yes but the perfect meditative moment is achievable.
just because people died for their beliefs (even if they did) doesn't prove them Quote
09-09-2010 , 04:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aigyptos
The terrorists of 9/11 weren't martyrs in the same way as the Early Christians, I hope you do understand that.

@OP, for me, the point that many Early Christians were martyred for their beliefs show me that they are persistent in their beliefs and that they gave it a very high value. Of course, you are right, it does not prove Jesus is the Messiah or God or anything about metaphysical claims in the NT. But for me, when you compare a religion with many martyrs with a religion with no important people that wilfully died for their beliefs, I would choose the first one as being more 'valid' or 'likely' or acceptable or whatever.
lol, wat, facepalm, etc.
just because people died for their beliefs (even if they did) doesn't prove them Quote
09-09-2010 , 04:25 PM
I think atheists are so anxious to disprove religion that they don't even entertain that God has a bigger pic, a tapestry, going on that we can't see because we are in a tapestry in the making.

Clearly some people are meant to stay on certain threads of his design and other people on other threads.

Atheists can't figure out which thread to be on so they try to tear the whole tapestry up. While theists think they are the only thread which is true for them but maybe not for another people in another time and place.

If you think this isn't true then go back and study Jacob and Esau and compare Judaism/Christianity with Islam....There's clearly a thread connection.
just because people died for their beliefs (even if they did) doesn't prove them Quote
09-09-2010 , 04:27 PM
why isnt splendour perma banned yet ... until then, i will just call her a liar and attention whore.
just because people died for their beliefs (even if they did) doesn't prove them Quote
09-09-2010 , 04:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splendour
Yes but the perfect meditative moment is achievable.
Of course there are many forms of Buddhism, but I have never heard of one where the perfect meditative moment is the end goal.
Generally the idea is to escape the endless cycle of rebirth by achieving Nirvana; he has no way of knowing if he is achieving that.
The fact that people do not need empirical evidence, to sacrifice their life for a belief proves that Jesus disciples did not necessarily have evidence.
just because people died for their beliefs (even if they did) doesn't prove them Quote
09-09-2010 , 04:42 PM
I think theists and atheists should just agree that dying for a religion isn't evidence for it to be true.

I'm not saying its evidence against religion, I'm not saying its evidence for religion, I'm just saying ... don't consider it evidence.
just because people died for their beliefs (even if they did) doesn't prove them Quote
09-09-2010 , 04:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NotReady
But the Mormon case isn't really helped even if the plates existed because the Book of Mormon contains many factual and grammatical errors and is obviously a fabrication by Smith, made up from the Bible and one or more other works of the time from which he got his ideas.
brilliant coming from a guy who believes a man rose from the dead.

Quote:
In other words, if you showed me the plates I would still think the BOM was a fabrication, assuming the "translation" is accurate, and that Smith had fashioned the plates. I would feel differently, however, if an angel showed me the plates.
what if a human showed you and claimed to be an angel? how do you plan on identifying an angel? must if have wings?
just because people died for their beliefs (even if they did) doesn't prove them Quote
09-09-2010 , 04:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thijs908
I think theists and atheists should just agree that dying for a religion isn't evidence for it to be true.

I'm not saying its evidence against religion, I'm not saying its evidence for religion, I'm just saying ... don't consider it evidence.
Theist response: "Right, it's not...but...(insert a few tidbits about why they believe those who died for the religion they believe in are different)"

Pretty much every single theist itt has done this.
just because people died for their beliefs (even if they did) doesn't prove them Quote
09-09-2010 , 05:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aigyptos
If people are being persecuted, and keep their belief when threatened to be killed, I highly highly appreciate that. I didn't say it is proof for the religion, but I did say there is a certain possibility that what they profess might be actually be true.
No, no it isnt, it does not increase the possibility by any conceivable amount. The logic is Faulty, what don't you understand about that. The Heavens gate cult all died for their belief, but what they profess has no more possibility of being true than the apostles dying for their beliefs, or for Mr. Mcguffin down the road who believes his cats control the world and want him to gun down 1000 cops, and dies while he attempts to do so.
just because people died for their beliefs (even if they did) doesn't prove them Quote
09-09-2010 , 05:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splendour
I find martyrdom says something about their commitment and I don't think you commit so strongly to something you lack knowledge about.

You have to wonder why people want to dispute the Gospel when if it is true is so clearly overwhelmingly in one's favor.
you constantly commit to things you don't understand on a regular basis. You are living proof that commitment to an idea needs no relation to reality.
just because people died for their beliefs (even if they did) doesn't prove them Quote
09-09-2010 , 05:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splendour
You have to look at the time line and type of martyrdom.

Modern Islam isn't witness martyrdom like the Apostles.
How do i know the Apostles were martyrs? Do you have any proof outside of a book i dont trust?
just because people died for their beliefs (even if they did) doesn't prove them Quote
09-09-2010 , 05:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dknightx
why isnt splendour perma banned yet ... until then, i will just call her a liar and attention whore.
I genuinely don't understand someone who constantly asks people to perma ban her... why can't someone just leave without being banned? We're fairly certain she's above the age of 10 which leaves me with no explanation.
just because people died for their beliefs (even if they did) doesn't prove them Quote
09-09-2010 , 06:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skalf
Of course there are many forms of Buddhism, but I have never heard of one where the perfect meditative moment is the end goal.
Generally the idea is to escape the endless cycle of rebirth by achieving Nirvana; he has no way of knowing if he is achieving that.
The fact that people do not need empirical evidence, to sacrifice their life for a belief proves that Jesus disciples did not necessarily have evidence.
No it's not the end just a very convincing experience.
just because people died for their beliefs (even if they did) doesn't prove them Quote
09-09-2010 , 07:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by batair
How do i know the Apostles were martyrs? Do you have any proof outside of a book i dont trust?
I assume like NotReady she was told the bible is true by an angel. For some reason i was left off the list of angels telling me which books were true
just because people died for their beliefs (even if they did) doesn't prove them Quote
09-09-2010 , 10:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by batair
How do i know the Apostles were martyrs? Do you have any proof outside of a book i dont trust?
This statement shows you never read the bible.
just because people died for their beliefs (even if they did) doesn't prove them Quote
09-09-2010 , 11:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splendour
This statement shows you never read the bible.
Makes no sense.
just because people died for their beliefs (even if they did) doesn't prove them Quote
09-09-2010 , 11:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splendour
This statement shows you never read the bible.
But i have, long ago far far away...admittedly most of it forgotten.

Still, its a book with a lot of hard to believe things happening. You have to at least acknowledge that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alewis21
Makes no sense.
I think she means if i had read the bible i would trust it.
just because people died for their beliefs (even if they did) doesn't prove them Quote

      
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