Quote:
Originally Posted by fretelöo
Ok, as per the OrP-challenge, let this be my one on-topic post of the day:
There's a number of Johns in the NT:
- John the baptist
- John the apostle
- the John who supposedly wrote the Gospel
- the John who supposedly wrote the book of Revelation
- the John who supposedly wrote the three epistles 1-3John
Not all of these are identical.
- John the baptist, according to the gospels, baptized Jesus. He didn't write anything (to the extent that we know) and he didn't reach the age of 90.
- John the Apostle is, according to the gospels, one of the twelve apostles. Church tradition identifies him as the author of the gospel, revelation and 1-3John, but that's very likely not the case.
- that leaves the three different literary bodies: Gospel, Revelations, Epistles. Among those, the Gospel and the epistles share similar theology and a significant number of idiomatic similarities. They are therefore considered to be written by what's generally referred to as the Johannine community or Johannine school. It is possible/likely that the Apostle John was founder/founding member of that community. Among these, 2John is probably the oldest, as 3John 9 seems to refer back to 2John. 1John is younger than both but older than the Gospel.
- Revelations is very likely not written by the same guy/group as Gospel+epistles. Different theology, different language.
I assume you base this on John 20-21 and esp. 21,24f. Why would you assume that this note of authorship is historical? It's likely that Joh was written around 100-110 AD. IF that note were historical, it'd mean that John was indeed stone old: Let's assume he was around 20 during the mid-30ies AD. Add 70 years (to get to ~100AD) and John would have to be indeed 90+. It's kind of difficult to see how this works out. It's not impossible, of course. On top of the math, you'd have to explain why John as an eye-witness, supposedly living in Ephesus, let so much time pass: The pauline community in Ephesus (and asia minor in general) was founded in the early 50ies AD (Ephesus likely around 53-55). Mark was written around 70AD. That's quite some time for some not-very-young-anymore apostle to just sit by...
I can't speak to the "time" of the writing but most importantly the fact that John is the risen Lazareth. As you may or may not know Rudolph Steiner gave a series of lectures on each of the Gospels' individually and my statements are referral to the particular series of lectures on the Gospel of John . Now that I've , in some manner, referenced a call to authority, but not necessarily your authority, some of the interesting points of the Gospel can be gleaned.
One point that I find extremely interesting is when in this Gospel , at the Crucifixion, reference is made to Jesus's Mother and His Mother's sister Mary, and Mary Magdalene. It was not common at that time nor today for two sisters to have the same name. If the idea that John was the witness to this event then further reasoning must be brought to bare on the issue.
I can't so it now for I feel inadequate but this Gospel and in fact all of the Gospels were written by individuals with a spiritual nomenclature. Examples are when Christ Jesus "goes up to a mountain" which is a sign that He brings his disciples into the heavenly perspective and not totally the earthly. References to the 'sea" likewise are known in the mystery centers and are not referring to a body of water but in some manner connected.
In short, the Gospels and even the Old Testament cannot be understood , in reality, through modern scholarship. The further away from those times, say in 300 years from now, the worse it will become.
Aside from his intellectual tour de force of "The Philosophy of Freedom" Steiner then began to give lectures on humanity in reference to the cosmos by a trained, but not trance clairvoyance. An example of a trance clairvoyance is Edgar Cayce, also Joseph in the Old Testament and the doctor who brought forth this "Urantia" book , noted in this forum.
The work of the Anthroposophical Society is called spiritual science in which the exact mental stance of the modern scientist, and admirably so, is used in the training of an exact trained clairvoyant state, in full consciousness. The modern scientist speaks to the earthly or sense bound activities and the work of spiritual science is obviously the spiritual world vis a vis our earthly habitation.
It goes on and on but in reference to the John Gospel, it has been used as a meditative referent force throughout the religious and spiritual centers and so it is no ordinary document , unless the reader keeps it earth bound.
Have to go back and note that I'm not theorizing and find this aspect of work fascinating in that the risen Lazareth is new new John, writer of this Gospel and the Revelation. Can't speak to the dates but certainly pigeon holing the exact date offers nothing in the matter of content and form of the Gospel itself.
I did not reference the Epistles because I haven't come across their authorship , not because there is a possibility of another answer , but because I haven't come across it, or forgot it, and therefore didn't make any statement to the issue. Believe it or not, I can't speculate.