you make a good argument that the NT is fiction.

This really isn't as clear cut as you make it out to be if you look at all the different Jewish sects at the time (many of which where considered blasphemous to the orthodox views) and see early Christianity as one of the bunch. And some early followers of Jesus in the Jerusalem churches didn't even hold some of the more blasphemous views of Jesus your referring to and some of them even kept the Law and their Jewish traditions.

Well, obviously a religion that fits with the way the world works is crucial to belief in it. I may disagree with you that Christianity does fit this world, but let's take it for the sake of argument that it does: where does this get us? Even if its entirely mythological, the authors would still have based that mythology on what they see around them. So I do think that should hold much probative value (though the opposite should certainly be a strike against a religion).

no you are actually. the vast majority of secular (non-apologist) scholars consider the historicity and authorship of most of the NT highly dubious.

I don't believe that it does get us very far. You are right that they could have just "got lucky" so to speak. I don't believe that it was very likely that this sort of theology would have formed given the way that most people of that time saw the world. But it is not a "miracle" that their description fits with my perception of reality.

It is just another piece of the puzzle really.

This would seem to be a fairly poor interpretation of the problem of evil.

People weren't stupid in those days, they were just more ignorant than us. There were still a number of stunningly brilliant minds - just as there are today. I'm not saying just anyone could have come up with this stuff - clearly the work of literary genius. Also, they didn't come up with this stuff from scratch. Each mythology built upon the previous mythology. Borrowing and adapting.

You're being generous

Wait, that doesn't make any difference at all. The point of my post was that historicity and metaphysicality are two completely separate things. And you reply by gluing them right back together!

Consider this: If a book contained exactly the same historical claims that the Bible does, but has totally different metaphysical claims, is it also true? According to your logic it is. But most reasonable people disagree.

Rephrasing to make things easier...

Sherlock Holmes: Some reliable history + some far-fetched bull****.
The Koran: Some reliable history + some far-fetched bull****.
The Bible: Some reliable history + some far-fetched bull****.

You're arguing that because the Bible has more reliable history than other (fictional) books, that its far-fetched bull**** is more likely to be true. How in the world do you come to that conclusion?

Yea Jib, only rize can avoid discussion.

You're still on ignore Gunth....................

You can't ignore The Truth forever.

No I'm not taking you off.............

There are evolutionary forces at work when it comes to ethics or "good" or "moral" people. You don't need religion, or God, or any of that mumbo jumbo to live a "good" life.

We are designed to be good people. Does that mean there are plenty of very very bad people? Sure, but I would never go so far as to say most people are bad. Not in the least. I think most people are good. Most people WILL help you if they could, if they see no risk or loss to help someone, and even then most people will help you.

When you see something terrible happen, an accident, someone get sick, whatever, you'd be amazed how many people want to help. It's a natural instinct. Now, do we have other factors involved, like crowd psychology, fear of helping might hurt, etc etc? Sure, but that doesn't take away from the fact that people WANT to help.

The world isn't a bad place, and you don't need God, or the church or whatever to live in it. I don't believe in any of that crap, and I'm happy as pie. Well, actually.. I'm at work right now so maybe "happy" isn't the right word, but you get my drift.

He doesn't think It's a tough argument. He thinks 'he covered it so why would he bother wasting his time responding to you?'; and so he decided not to respond. That's my guess anyway.

As for why he's avoiding my argument, that is curious.

Why should people suffer an eternity for finite crimes, Jib? Why do you find Hell to be just in any way?

Already established that the majority of the water on earth is contaminated or otherwise undrinkable..........

Gummie bears!

nom nom nom

Rize, yes i understand. He'd rather couple in your specific water example with the "problem of evil" becauuse its easier to defend. There is no good answer to your question in particular - even he knows that. It would be nice if he would own up and admit it.

jib, any comment on my post? i realize it was a bit condescending, but try to look past that, please.

He won't though; and I refuse to respect someone who avoids reality instead of confronting it.

well i dont think think you should respect him, necessarily. i've just thought you shoud act like you do sometimes in order to get him to hopefully answer a question or two

Every thread he picks out a few softball questions/arguments to respond to and ignores the rest. Not once did he ever quote me or anyone else and say, "you know what, that's a good point and I don't have an answer." He never acknowledges those strong arguments, he only ignores them. This thread is yet another example of that, if anyone needed it. Although he did make more of an effort overall (not with regards to my responses) in this thread, partly because he know I was watching from the beginning.

That's how you know that Jib is not an intellectually honest individual. He pretends like he wants everyone to do their best to convince him to become a deist, and when someone actually gives him good reasons to do that, he simply won't respond.

Classic case of self deception and dishonesty. I don't see a reason to continue using anymore of my time on Jib. Anyone paying attention has seen his true colors in the hundreds of threads just like this one.

Maybe you'll continue looking for answers from him, I'm done wasting my time

well its him or splendour/gunth, so...