Define irony.

Yet, you continue posting in response to me. I'm glad people like you, asdfasdf32 are not in a position of power. You can't debate Islam properly w/o resorting to hate sites as you(cooler/wilcogold) have. For folks like coolerboy, the subject of Islam is one which he presents to readers with scare tactics and stories of terror designed to shock readers.

Folks like coolerboy (as outlined by his first few posts in the Islamophobia thread) don't understand the issue they are being presented. While folks like asdfasdf32 are collaborators. On multiple occasions asdfasdf32, in this thread and in a television thread, been overly critical toward me. Which I find amusing.

Resisting the urge to repost the "Oh you!" gif.

Oh, I didn't know that asdfasdf32 was critical of you in a thread about a TV show. I retract all statements I've made in this thread.

I voted strongly agree in the vote. I do feel that muslims act differently.

Some practices Islam after the Quran and some people does not. I hardly count people who say the believe in Allah, but does not practice anything as muslims, wether this is right or not I'm not sure, and it might be because I don't know enough about Islam. However I know enough about Islam, the Quran and what I see in the media to be of the opinion that Islam is far away from a peaceful religion, as for example Jainism.

In Oslo the Capital of Norway 100% of the rapes was done by men with a Islamic background on Norwegian girls, not on their "own" which usually wears burqas. Most of them from the middle-east and Africa. Is this coincidence?

Of course not, and it goes hand in hand with how they view women in the Quran.

My neighbour at the place I live in the UK is from Qatar and he's friends which also lives in the same city is from Saudi-Arabia.

These guys views on especially women is absurd and belongs to the viking-time. The essentially look at women as objects.

How is the laws that is in Islamic - Sharia Laws Peaceful?

• Theft is punishable by amputation of the right hand (above).
• Criticizing or denying any part of the Quran is punishable by death.
• Criticizing or denying Muhammad is a prophet is punishable by death.
• Criticizing or denying Allah, the moon god of Islam is punishable by death.
• A Muslim who becomes a non-Muslim is punishable by death.
• A non-Muslim who leads a Muslim away from Islam is punishable by death.
• A non-Muslim man who marries a Muslim woman is punishable by death.
• A man can marry an infant girl and consummate the marriage when she is 9 years old.
• Girls' clitoris should be cut (per Muhammad's words in Book 41, Kitab Al-Adab, Hadith 5251).
• A woman can have 1 husband, but a man can have up to 4 wives; Muhammad can have more.
• A man can unilaterally divorce his wife but a woman needs her husband's consent to divorce.
• A man can beat his wife for insubordination.
• Testimonies of four male witnesses are required to prove rape against a woman.
• A woman who has been raped cannot testify in court against her rapist(s).
• A woman's testimony in court, allowed only in property cases, carries half the weight of a man's.
• A female heir inherits half of what a male heir inherits.
• A woman cannot drive a car, as it leads to fitnah (upheaval).
• A woman cannot speak alone to a man who is not her husband or relative.
• Meat to be eaten must come from animals that have been sacrificed to Allah - i.e., be Halal.
• Muslims should engage in Taqiyya and lie to non-Muslims to advance Islam.

It's delusional to call Islam Peaceful, its as far away from the truth that it's possible to come.


Back in school i also remember how some of the muslims was mocking the jew teacher with drawings, comments and what not. Islam claims to be the right religion and everyone else is going to hellfire.

Peaceful? Nope.

Luton 2012: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OXzaOif4k0

lol Allah got you good here. Thanks friend

According to a Norway human rights group,( your location) the UAE is ranked ahead of the USA, Germany, France in terms of human rights. What are general thoughts on this?

Why resisting?

yes, this is happening itt.

Strongly disagree sorry, typo... :/ Quite a silly one.

How can it be possible that "100% of the rapes was done by men with a Islamic background" in Oslo ?

Statistics regarding assault rapists:

The Oslo Police District has given a report of rapes in Oslo in 2010. The report shows that for all types of rape, except assault rape, European perpetrators are in the majority, and they are mostly Norwegian. Assault rapes covers only five identified unique person. These have all a foreign origin. The number is however, so low that it does not provide a basis for drawing conclusions with regard to country of origin. Two of them were very young (under 18) and two had severe psychiatric diagnoses and cannot be regarded as representative of their ethnic culture. It is highlighted in the report that generalizations like “Oslo’s rapists are foreigners”, which have been seen in media, are wrong. The report gives no statistics regarding religion of rapists.”

Yours Sincerely,

Grethe Kleivan

Deputy Director General

http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/12/gil...ng-all-muslim/

debunked?

You may want to consider your sources or are you okay linking to a video from a channel that contains video's from just notables as Paul Weston of the British Freedom Party and Geert Wilders who was once banned from entering the UK

Didn't the Vikings have progressive laws towards women? I don't remember.

Regarding the rapes:

http://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/...ed-by-muslims/

Dereds: I don't care what channel that posted that video, I saw the video. I have no idea why you draw to conclusions about the clip, because the user has posted islamophobic material.

I'll take it that you don't care to consider your links

They did. It was a patriarchal society, but one where women held a strong position compared to many cultures of the same side. They weren't property, they could refuse marriage, they could attain divorce and also remarriage, the heritage line could pass through them and not only the father, they could take official positions if their husbands were absent or died. They would also often rule the homestead if their husbands were in trade or viking. In part it is down to practical reasons, it was an abundant but relatively tough land with a climate that only permitted one agricultural harvest per year. This puts a huge demand on labor, but makes life relatively stable and well-off once you have that labour. Thus women's position as necessary artisans and workers were established early.

To comment on the issue at hand, immigrants in Norway are hugely overrepresented in assault rapes. It is true that the numbers are small, but they are also disproportionate. In about 80% of all assault rape cases police are looking for or prosecute somebody of a non-western immigrant background, which is fairly huge considering they make up about 5% of the populace.

Other than that, the debate has been infested with politics. The right-wing populists foam around their mouths of course and speak of "muslims" and "attack on our culture" even though the cultural leanings of the rapists or suspected rapists aren't really on the table, while their left-wing opposition are trying to cloak the numbers in obfuscation and say stuff like "only 5 cases were brought to sentencing in Oslo in 2012", while they ignore the disproportionate number both in felons, persons of interest and the populaces the suspects are drawn from.

I don't know the religion of the suspects, and to single out "Muslims" seem premature even if we knew it. I would also like to look at other cultural baggage. Some political commentators have tried to blame socio-economic status, but this is a stretch in Norway even though research affirms this in less developed countries and wealthy countries with less wealth equality. Poverty is a number based on proportion of individual income to national mean income, and "real poverty" doesn't really exist in Norway per 2013 (it does, but it is so miniscule we're probably talking about less than 0.001% of the populace below some kind of international "hunger" line).

I would think it is a rewrite of the original source of this story, which was actually a spokeswoman for the police writing in one of Norway's most serious newspapers. Her article was sadly not very reflective and it gave right-wing populists a lot of ammunition to have such a "respected" source.

It is however true that the Quran is not exactly progressive when it comes to rape, and Islamic culture is no hotbed of equal rights or progressive gender rights, tending instead towards objectification of women; A typical trait in rape cases. Some geographic countries in the world, for example Somalia or Nigeria also have enormous rape numbers that are not tied to religion. It would be an oversight to neglect either of these points when looking for reasons.

Lastly, but very far from least. Assault rapes are a very minor part of the complete picture. Rape in general have proportionate numbers when it comes to ethnic background in the assailants, though here one should also mention that in many cultural backgrounds there is really no such thing as "raping your wife". We therefore can expect the underreporting between cultures that differ in this to correlate with those views.

It is totally irrelevant who posted the video. Watch it, evaluate and analyze it. Think. Whoever posted it doesn not change the content.

huh who knew. Interesting.

I feel like this nuanced point has not received enough attention. One of the charts touched on the topic as well. There are various definitions of rape depending on where you go. Some cultures might not acknowledge one can sexually assault their spouse.

The problem is much deeper than simply getting skewed stats.

EDIT: Brutti & Kid - a match made in heaven

Yes, the stats can be skewed and regardless they don't always measure what is truly interesting. Then pile on that you have two political "outer" wings that have an interest for the stats to say a specific thing and you have the ball rolling. Now some views get branded as "PC" and some get branded as "nationalism".

And suddenly all you're "allowed" to do when being serious (or rather fulfilling the image of someone being serious) is too very carefully waddle around in the "acceptable middle" while using a constant barrage of disclaimers and desperately staying away from the stronger conclusions, which in turn makes people suspicious of the entire debate as inconsequential.

IRT the 2nd source itself http://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/islamophobes/, the source falsely states the number as 90%. You said 100 % earlier. Whats interesting here, Brutti, even knowing the fact you have revealed yourself to support extremist groups, I find your points intriguing. Are you part of any political organizations in Norway? Or maybe a member of a SIOE website?

On a serious,more troubling note, when one types in(on google) rape in Olso,..the resulting sources consist of stormfront, frontpagemag and other extremist anti-Islam groups.

EDIT: Keep in mind, from a Muslim female human rights activist in Pakistan. (this is to directly address Brutti),




If you search the internet regarding the Islamic perspective on the issue of rape, unfortunately you will come across thousands of hate sites that are bent on criticising Islam. There are only a few forums that present the correct understanding of this much-exploited trauma-turned-melodrama.

I don't support any groups, I just dislike religion as a whole.

Ok, I appreciate the information in moving forward. Why did you link those earlier sources, was it an accident? Why not search for a more reputable source like some of the other posters itt?

Tried to edit my post:

I support the progress party, just paying the membership fee. That is it, I do not plan on use my time on either religion or politics.

However I do plan to use my time on self-development and find out what gives value in life besides studying and working after I'm done studying.

For me I'd guess I would like to make a lot of money and give it away.

I just think it's crazy how intelligent people like for example an engineer who is smart, can believe that the Prophet flew to the moon on his horse and split the moon in two as in the Quran, and its totally legit. Nobody questions it.

The reason I'm provocated in particular by Islam is their viewpoints especially about women. It does not belong in the 21st century.

The discussion about religion is never-ending, and I usually don't really care that much, before I actually started reading the Quran. Mostly because of my neighbourgh and for educational purposes.

Same goes for the testament, especially the old testament. I find some of it barbaric, and I don't view it as peaceful either. Jews peaceful? Not very peaceful to the Palestine's either.

I'd like to live in harmony with people, threat people with respect, be nice, open the doors for elders, give away the seat to the people who needs it on the bus, regardless of race, background or religion. I simply don't care. However if people are practicing Quran, they think that non-believers should burn in hellfire. Honor Killings within their families. Or apocacy should be punished by death.

That ain't respectful or peaceful even though they only think in those directions but does not say anything.


The bottomline is that Islam is not a religion of peace, but besides buddism or jainism is there any religion that is of peace? Doesn't seem like it.

I just feel that religion is toxic and doesn't really bring any good in general. However the red herring is that the major three religions aren't very peaceful, that is my conclusion of my analysis of those religions. It is also annoying how all of them claim that they have the right answer, which means 2/3 definitely is a cult.

Does EDL or extreme groups any good? No, they are worse. Many people in those extreme groups especially men has their origin from hooligan groups, and I would say that most of the members of such groups probably doesn't even know anything about the Quran or about religion at all. It is utterly crazy. People in these kinds of groups needs to get a hold of their lives and do something else. What they should have done instead of running around in the streets doing nothing could be volunteering or something that gives value to other people, instead of chanting racist songs in the streets like they have nothing else to do.


Credible sources? I would say that Dagsrevyen in Norway is a pretty credible source. That the link is to be found on that site is variance I'd guess.

Also my neighbourgh in the UK knows about my religious viewpoints, we can still eat dinner together and we do not speak about religion that much. Even though I do see that it is a big part or influence on how he lives his life. It may give him values, but those values are sort of indoctrinated from his childhood. Which means it is not something he has chosen.

We cannot discuss women either, or women's rights. Thats hopeless, his view on women is not something I would share with him. It is basically an object, or an animal.

This muslim is not a extreme in anyway, he is like all his buddies. Normal muslims on the surface. This guy is cool and all that, but we're very different and there is a limit to how often I would spend time with him. However it is educational to see him every now and then.

However I find most of the things Sam Harris / Dawkins as logical and rational. Yes I believe in science, I don't believe in story's written 1500 years ago. I know that my viewpoints are not in the middle probably somewhere in the middle on the right side I believe.

Regarding Rapes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmQ49DztFC4

Whats your opinion on that clip, especially from Spitznogle.

Sam Harris, when it comes to actual policy is crazy. Or rather I should say I don't like his conservative militant bent on things.

In the United Kingdom, Muslims today give more to charity than people of other religions, according to a British poll. There, Muslims, on average, gave $567, compared to $412 for Jews, $308 for Protestants, $272 for Catholics and $177 for atheists. Today, conservative estimates of annual zakat is estimated to be 15 times global humanitarian aid contributions

The practice of giving zakat, or alms, is another central pillar of Islam. By tradition, all adult Muslims who are able are expected to annually contribute 2.5% of their accumulated wealth (not annual income) to aid the poor, sick and otherwise needy. In some countries, such as Malaysia and Pakistan, government agencies collect zakat, but in most cases donations are made through mosques or religious organizations.

Is this something to not be in awe of? Even if you don't like Islam, could you, Brutti, respect the actions of these Muslims for giving alms to charity?

http://www.worldwideopen.org/en/reso...8#.UrKFO-K5-HM

http://www.pewforum.org/2012/08/09/t...nt/#almsgiving




Kazakhstan(70%+ Muslim) 32nd (rank) 0.722(score) Kazakhstan was ranked 23rd in terms of female Legislators, senior officials and managers

- The United Arab Emirates along with about 15 of the 136 nations polled, scored a 1.000 and ranked #1 ( you can not score higher) in terms of Educational attainment

http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_Gen...13.pdf#page=20



"The ASMA-WISE 3rd global Conference, "WISE: Muslim Women Leaders at the Frontlines of Change", was held in Istanbul, Turkey from Friday, October 14 to Monday, October 17, 2011.

More than 180 Muslim women from 45 countries, which include Egypt, Indonesia, Kazakhstan, Libya, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Tunisia, attended panels on Muslim women's leadership. The Conference specifically focused on religious & spiritual, political and business & civic leadership, with an emphasis on highlighting how Muslim women are shattering stereotypes by playing significant roles as key leaders in these areas."

Brutti, do these folks not deserve respect?


None of that is in the traditional teachings of Islam or the Quran. In fact according to the Achtiname of Muhammad, Muhammad the son of ‘Abd Allah, the Messenger of Allah, and careful guardian of the whole world; has wrote the present instrument to all those who are in his national people, and of his own religion, as a secure and positive promise to be accomplished to the Christian nation, and relations of the Nazarene, whosoever they may be, whether they be the noble or the vulgar, the honorable or otherwise, saying thus.

As for apostasy in Quran

1 – What is funny about the penalty of apostasy in Muslim human made religion is that although it is the most notorious aspect of the human made Shari’a and it still a controversial issue with only two (Hadeethes: Sayings attributed to the Prophet Mohammed ) to support it, it is applied more than any other punishment in the Shari’a. These two hadeethes are false as they were invented in the Abbasy Empire, about two centuries after the death of the Prophet Mohammed.

Prophet Mohammed said: “ One who hurts a non-Muslim, he hurts me and one who hurts me, hurts God.” (Hadith) Qur’an says: “… and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious.” (16: 125)

As for honor killings in Quran,

“There is broad support and acceptance of this idea in Islam, and we're going to see it more and more in the United States," says Robert Spencer, founder of Jihad Watch and prominent antagonist of Islam.

yet,

There is absolutely nothing in Islamic literature or jurisprudence that advocates, sanctions or even allows honor killings. Islam protects the sanctity of human life and abhors any attempt to take the life of an innocent person. The Holy Quran teaches that whoever intentionally kills another will be punished by God because the killing of one person is equated to killing all mankind.

“Verily, the most honorable among you, in the sight of Allah, is he who is the most righteous among you” (49:14).







The Quran commands equal treatment of persons.

Part of the prophets last sermon included a civil rights speech, 1400 years before that of MLK. Prophet M challenged racism and bigotry

"In this sermon of Muhammad, Muslims find their deep commitment to the universal human values such as sacredness of life and property, equality, justice, peace and more. Upon these high universal values, the religion of Islam was built. "


“All of you are equal. All men, whatever nation or tribe they belong to, and whatever station in life they may hold, are equal…an Arab possesses no superiority over the non-Arab, nor does a non-Arab over an Arab. Also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action.”

Treat others justly so that no one would be unjust to you.

O People, it is true that you have certain rights over your women, but they also have rights over you.

Treat your women well and be kind to them, for they are your partners and committed helpers.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/imam-a...b_1252185.html

Does this speech not deserve respect, Brutti?


You and Islam have more in common then you may think.