I find your moral framework difficult to accept. You could simply declare some one you don't like a tree and shoot them in the head and have a guilt free conscious.

God is Pro Life, AND Pro Choice, if you have the wisdom to understand HOW these work together in the everyday practicallity of life then your 100 time ahead of the others.

But most people do not understand, and become hard and calloused, and lash out at women who have an abortion without understanding or knowing the circumstances, or that God is pro choice and pro life.

You statement about it makes you mad that people get abortions is very immature, in that who cares what you think. It's not your life right? Those women have the right to decide to do what they want, just as you have the right to be upset and voice your opinion about it.

Have a heart!

Dont you think that they in their hearts have enough to deal with mentally without some religeous zealot who does not truly understand the love of God, his grace, his mercy, freewill, etc....taking cheap shots at them from the sidelines?

It's easy to be critical of others, but its very hard to be loving and understanding.

Just a little insight, according to the bible LIFE does not start UNTIL the first breath of the baby, so figure that into your equation.......

First, duh, trees are alive. However, if you really think ambulatory motion is necessary for life, then substitute "mice" for "trees." I assume you consider some mice to be alive.

More importantly, you are making my point for me. You obviously are using some set of conditions to tell if an organism is "alive" or not, so what you should do is tell us what those conditions are and why we should prefer them to other alternative sets of conditions.

Where does the Bible say this? Is it in the book of Ephaticus, because my Bible is still missing that one...

Genesis 2:7 "And the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and the man became a living soul."

Breath is a symbol of the Presence of God.

Also a lot of ancient Eastern religions identify the breath as sacred. They meditate in tune with the breath.

Adam was not born, nor a baby, nor a fetus, so I don't think the verse from Genesis is really useful here in telling us what we want to know here.

As for the importance of breath, I don't see the relevance.

I was looking into it a bit more and some religious groups say the respiratory system appears designed.

I don't know how Pletho says at birth definitively because the fetus breaths through the mother in utero imo.

Lets put in another way,


Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

If man became a living soul ONLY AFTER he was formed, meaning he had been formed first, THEN he was pronounced a LIVING soul AFTER the breath of life entered him, then why would you think it to be any different for a baby?

After all, according to the bible man is considered DEAD, AFTER the last breath also.....

How simple does God have to be to help people understand? Genesis, especially the first 3 chapters, lay the ground work, to alot of basic principles in life.

I would be lying if I said I understood the intricate details of how God set up life, but I can assure you, that breath life, is related to the air that we breath, meaning somehow God has something to do with it, there is something that is in the air that we breath, that is spritual that gives us life, animation, and when it no longer is in our viens or lungs we are dead.

That breath that when it leaves us that sustains us, is what also, makes us alive at birth, alive from Gods perspective, meaning having soul life.

Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

Job 34:14 If he set his heart upon man, [if] he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;

Job 34:15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

I'm not going to debate or argue with you about this, you can believe what you want. If you call yourself a believer in God, then believe the word of God. If not, then you can fall into another catagory/denomination, which is why we have so many in the first place.

No ones believes the word of God, the bible hardly at all anymore.

The fetus does not breath air, which is where the breath of life is at.......from God, until after the birth.

You could be right but some people consider the whole birth to life process a miracle. Barren women were considered cursed in ancient times.

I think the real argument isn't "when life begins" any way though the legal battles make it seem that way. The real question is whether or not you will heed God and learn his ways.

Manassas put his children in the fire to Molech or Baal (I can't remember which god offhand) and he was able to repent and turn back to God.

Abortion is one of the points in life where you will start to consider whether or not there is a God and if he has a say or not in how you approach life.

Again, this is about the original creation of the universe, not the first breath of a human baby. This is not a parallel situation.

So? This doesn't show us when life begins, only when it ends...

Not that hard for God to be plainer. Here's an example:

Ephaticus 2:3

"Human life begins at birth."

I don't want your assurances, I want proof from the Bible. None of the verses you list below support your claim.

This has nothing to do with when human life begins.

This has nothing to do with when human life begins (my OWN first breath upon being born is NOT the same as the "breath of the Almighty.")

This doesn't have anything to do with when human life begins.

Don't mistake your own beliefs for the teachings of the Bible.

I don't really think tress are not alive. I was using sarcasm to make a comment about Bunny's rationale for being pro choice.

Thank you for making my point.

Wait, so you think that trees also have a right to life?

Trees do.....but I think it is okay to mow down an unwanted sapling.

Nevermind.

Here's something else relevant to the connection between religion and abortion. As I said earlier, many people regard the pro-life position as the obvious Christian viewpoint. However, this has not always been the case. Such notable theologians as Augustine and Aquinas didn't believe that life began at conception.

Seems like the anti-abortion crowd's basic premise is: Human life is precious and you shouldn't take a human life.

Seems pretty much impossible to prove and is also rather nonsensical.

Except a lot of them also support wars and the death penalty, and aren't a big fan of helping out those who are already alive and struggling, to continue to live.

It's really hard for me to not view the "pro-life" position in those cases as just, "these could be future converts to our religion!" But once they "reject" the particular tenents being espoused they can just GO DIE. If Earth's purpose is to be one big sorting hat, once you're sorted you're done. It's SUPER IMPORTANT you get a chance to be sorted, though. Just going straight up to heaven is CHEATING.

Several years ago I changed my position from being pro capital punishment to against it in order to be consistent with my views on abortion.

Do you think all of your actions are entirely consistent with your abortion views?

No.

It's not a declaration, it's a belief. If I believed someone wasn't really alive when I shot them I would be guilt free (why would I be guilty?)

I'm not "declaring" a fetus to be not-alive, it's how I think the world is. I'm not declaring an elevator with fifteen passengers crowded and an empty one not-crowded either. I just don't think there is a clear dividing line as a matter of fact. Hence the ineffectiveness of any "if it's not conception, when does life begin?" argument.

Btw, I'm on holiday ATM (walking as much of manhattan as possible in five days ) and hardly checking the Internet at all, so may not answer for a while. Nonetheless, I'm interested still in a defense of your claim that pro-choice=nazi but xbox-buying American doesn't.

Well props for admitting it.

Do you think you would change the things that aren't consistent if abortion were to be outlawed in this country?

Well I guess these debates have been worth something, then.

Ah, should have checked this thread earlier. It's probably too late now to offer some tour-guiding assistance. I love going to NYC!

it is an amazing place. I was going to ask about meeting up with any new York RGTers but the people I'm traveling with organized a pretty packed schedule for us, so that plan fell by the wayside... :/