I'm pro choice - Page 3 - Religion, God, and Theology

What if we could predic the future with 95% accuracy and determine that for whatever reason the babys life is going to be be horrible and is only going to cause pain and suffering to everyone living in the world and there was a 5% possibility that the baby would have a fairly good life but the eu would still be very negative, would you not support killing it?

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05-16-2011 , 12:23 PM

#53

FBandit

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Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 449

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu Pidasso

If I do nothing he kills me and instead of 2 humans beings there is only one.

Now If I shoot him and then attempt to save his life, sometimes I will save his life so on average there will be more than 1 human being left.

Self defense has nothing to do with me valuing my life more than his but rather me attempting to maximize the number of humans beings who survive the situation.

What if there are two guys attacking you?

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05-16-2011 , 12:25 PM

#54

Stu Pidasso

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Quote:

Originally Posted by master3004

Well no, but if she had the abortion knowing that she would not be able to feed herself and her one year old child, then we wouldnt have that problem, now would we?

Seems like you are entirely in defense of pro-choice with this statement.

As far as I can tell all you are really saying is that an unborn human being has less value than a born human being.

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05-16-2011 , 12:26 PM

#55

the_f_was_that

adept

Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 952

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBandit

Just to enrich this a bit, I'd add Charles Manson as a living example. 16yo mother, never cared about him, he ended up spending most of his life incarcerated in some form, and the rest.

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05-16-2011 , 12:28 PM

#56

Stu Pidasso

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Quote:

Originally Posted by FBandit

What if there are two guys attacking you?

It is two seperate and independent transactions.

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05-16-2011 , 12:31 PM

#57

gskowal

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Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 3,521

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu Pidasso

NICE WAY OUT, I am not talking about an example here where YOU ARE GOING TO SAVE HIM. I am talking here about ending his life at the moment of self defense. Meaning, it is either your life or his, if you do fight back his life is gone.

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05-16-2011 , 12:32 PM

#58

FBandit

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu Pidasso

It is two seperate and independent transactions.

What if the entire world wants to kill you? Would nuking them all be 6 billion separate and independent transactions.

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05-16-2011 , 12:35 PM

#59

the_f_was_that

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Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 952

Btw, Stu, I'm sure that you don't think that everyone is equal.

For one, you celebrated Osama's death. He obviously wasn't equal to the rest of the wrold's population unless you drink champaign every time you hear about someone's death.

But let's bring it closer to home. You value your family members' life more than the average Joe's.

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05-16-2011 , 12:35 PM

#60

Stu Pidasso

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Quote:

Originally Posted by FBandit

Suppose your mother had a device at her disposal which if actuated would alter the space time continium so that you were never born. Should mothers be allowed to use such devices?

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05-16-2011 , 12:36 PM

#61

gskowal

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Stu Pidasso, what about this example..

There are two kids that are drowning, your son and some unknown to you child. You can save only one of them.. Which one do you chose? According to you both of them have equal value to you? Will the process of picking which one to chose be random to you?

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05-16-2011 , 12:39 PM

#62

FBandit

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu Pidasso

Suppose your mother had a device at her disposal which if actuated would alter the space time continium so that you were never born. Should mothers be allowed to use such devices?

In some cases sure.

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05-16-2011 , 12:40 PM

#63

Stu Pidasso

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Originally Posted by the_f_was_that

What can I say? I am not a saint.

But don't worry, you won't ever wake up on a park bench to find your liver missing because I needed it to save one of my children.

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05-16-2011 , 12:41 PM

#64

FBandit

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Originally Posted by walkthewalk

Strawman.

This is different to shooting them each individually as they each try to stab you independently.

Wanting and killing different things.

The entire world is actively trying to kill you. How is nuking them all any different than shooting or stabbing them?

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05-16-2011 , 12:48 PM

#65

Stu Pidasso

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Quote:

Originally Posted by gskowal

The other child has just as much value as mine. Of course I would choose to save mine for purely selfish motives. However I don't believe this to be immoral because I am commiting an act of saving the life of a human being where as an abortion is an act of taking the life of a human being.

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05-16-2011 , 12:53 PM

#66

Stu Pidasso

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Quote:

Originally Posted by gskowal

Killing him isn't any less moral than allowing him to kill you.

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05-16-2011 , 12:56 PM

#67

the_f_was_that

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A girl makes you wear a condom, is this not against pro life?

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05-16-2011 , 12:57 PM

#68

Oshenz11

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu Pidasso

But don't worry, you won't ever wake up on a park bench to find your liver missing because I needed it to save one of my children.

Why not?

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05-16-2011 , 01:00 PM

#69

Stu Pidasso

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Quote:

Originally Posted by the_f_was_that

A girl makes you wear a condom, is this not against pro life?

Is killing a human being the same as preventing a human being from coming into existence?

Catholicism says both actions are wrong.

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05-16-2011 , 01:01 PM

#70

gskowal

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu Pidasso

The other child has just as much value as mine

Obviously it does not since you go about saving your child rather then the other kid...

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05-16-2011 , 01:05 PM

#71

the_f_was_that

adept

Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 952

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu Pidasso

Is killing a human being the same as preventing a human being from coming into existence?

Catholicism says both actions are wrong.

Yeah, I understand the Catholic position. They're best when they're fresh.

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05-16-2011 , 01:06 PM

#72

Jibninjas

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Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 11,612

Quote:

Originally Posted by Original Position

Nothing special is meant by "all." Feel free to defend any position on abortion from the Biblical text. Here's my issue: I understand why Catholics are more pro-life than the other people. But why are evangelical Christians who only accept the Bible as authoritative? As far as I can tell, the Bible doesn't say much about abortion. So why are the moral arguments against abortion so much more convincing to evangelicals?

One sort of unfriendly explanation is that it is because evangelicals are more focused on maintaining a patriarchal authority structure that is threatened by the social ramifications of legal abortion. Or, that evangelicals tend to be anti-sex in general, and so want those who engage in sexual immorality to suffer the consequences. Another, more friendly one, is that evangelicals tend to emphasize the value of family more than average and abortion weakens families.

Of course, you might disagree with my premise that the Bible doesn't say much about abortion. So convince me.

While you could very well be correct in your explanation for some, I would say that the basis for many (including myself) would be that of the value of human life.

I think that one can easily (I am no good a scripture mining) make a case that the NT teaches us that all life has intrinsic value, and that human life is not ours to take. Would you disagree with this assessment?

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05-16-2011 , 01:07 PM

#73

FBandit

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Quote:

Originally Posted by gskowal

Obviously it does not since you go about saving your child rather then the other kid...

Of course he values his own child more than anyone else's child and nobody should blame him for it, but I think it's entirely reasonable to acknowledge that there is no reason why an unbiased observer with no further information about the children should value them differently.

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05-16-2011 , 01:07 PM

#74

gskowal

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu Pidasso

Killing him isn't any less moral than allowing him to kill you.

we are talking here about the value of life not about morality... You made a claim that "One reason I am pro-life is because I believe the ideology which has caused the most evil in the world(in my opinion) is that which allows some human beings to be valued less than others."

I disagree... And here are examples...

My life has more value to me then your life.
My kids life has more value to me then other kids.

My own life or life of my family, friends, others I have relationships with will have more value to me then those I have no contact with or those who I don't have any relationship with. This "ideology" does not cause ANY EVIL like you are claiming it does.