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If someone thinks that Adam and Eve are a myth, does it follow that Christ The savior is also? If someone thinks that Adam and Eve are a myth, does it follow that Christ The savior is also?

09-15-2011 , 11:02 PM
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to assume there is a God and that we are seperated from him, and to think that is more natural than any other thoughts on the subject is to make a mockery of the word "natural".
I would think that you, as an atheist, would be the first to grasp why my second statement follows from my first.
If someone thinks that Adam and Eve are a myth, does it follow that Christ The savior is also? Quote
09-15-2011 , 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Concerto
Okay, I think I get your meaning better. Except you still haven't made the bolded claim into a conclusion that follows from a logical argument. The motives of God, whom I accept as the highest moral authority, are anything but self-evident. Simply stating that I should be able to explain them doesn't work.



The purpose, or one of the main ones, of the garden story is to explain the essentials of how Adam brought corruption on himself and his earthly legacy. Not to record all the details.



Something like that. Paul is saying all were made corruptible by one man (the first Adam), and now all have access to incorruption again by one man (the second Adam, Jesus).
Why did adam have the power to do this?
If someone thinks that Adam and Eve are a myth, does it follow that Christ The savior is also? Quote
09-15-2011 , 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Doggg
I would think that you, as an atheist, would be the first to grasp why my second statement follows from my first.
Well it's no wonder we're having trouble communicating.

I'm a Christian, wrestling pretty hard with if I should remain one.
If someone thinks that Adam and Eve are a myth, does it follow that Christ The savior is also? Quote
09-15-2011 , 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Acemanhattan
Well it's no wonder we're having trouble communicating.

I'm a Christian, wrestling pretty hard with if I should remain one.
Ace,

Given that ~90% of the guys in here are non-theists, and many of them
very anti-Christian, I'd suggest if you are questioning your beliefs
that you should at least pose your questions in some Christian forums
in addition to this one, so as to get some balance in the responses.
If someone thinks that Adam and Eve are a myth, does it follow that Christ The savior is also? Quote
09-15-2011 , 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Acemanhattan
If someone doesn't believe the creation account and the fall of man to be literal, if sneaky snakes and fruit from a forbidden tree seems more mythical than plausible, does that then mean Christ has to be an extension of that myth?

If Christ came to reconcile fallen mankind back to God, or if as Paul writes, he is the new man through which life is given back to us because of the death brought on us all by Adams transgression, does it not simply make that a more complex storylines in the fairytale if one doesn't believe there was a fall of man to atone for?

I am almost painfully certain I no longer believe the Bible as the literal word of God anymore, so much so that it seems silly to even write about it as though I once had. I'm trying to make sure I don't make a mistake in applying reason and logic, and just assume that means Christ has to go as well.
grunching

If you are talking simply about the story of adam and eve then no, if you are talking about original sin, then possibly.

One can believe that the story in Genesis simply is a metaphorical representation of the fall of man and therefore believe it not to have actually happened that way while still believing that original sin is an actual concept brought about by some other way. Thus logically retaining the idea that christ came to overcome original sin.
If someone thinks that Adam and Eve are a myth, does it follow that Christ The savior is also? Quote
09-15-2011 , 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Jibninjas
grunching

If you are talking simply about the story of adam and eve then no, if you are talking about original sin, then possibly.

One can believe that the story in Genesis simply is a metaphorical representation of the fall of man and therefore believe it not to have actually happened that way while still believing that original sin is an actual concept brought about by some other way. Thus logically retaining the idea that christ came to overcome original sin.
This is where I end up too.

I just am growing uncomfortable with all the mental gymnastics required to maintain my Christian beliefs, at least ones that resemble the well intended Christianity I inherited from those I've learned from.
If someone thinks that Adam and Eve are a myth, does it follow that Christ The savior is also? Quote
09-16-2011 , 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Acemanhattan
This is where I end up too.

I just am growing uncomfortable with all the mental gymnastics required to maintain my Christian beliefs, at least ones that resemble the well intended Christianity I inherited from those I've learned from.
I think the story was literal and figurative.

Consider this guys comprehensive account of the reality behind the "metaphor" or parallel. http://www.jahtruth.net/twh.pdf
If someone thinks that Adam and Eve are a myth, does it follow that Christ The savior is also? Quote
09-16-2011 , 12:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acemanhattan
If someone doesn't believe the creation account and the fall of man to be literal, if sneaky snakes and fruit from a forbidden tree seems more mythical than plausible, does that then mean Christ has to be an extension of that myth?

If Christ came to reconcile fallen mankind back to God, or if as Paul writes, he is the new man through which life is given back to us because of the death brought on us all by Adams transgression, does it not simply make that a more complex storylines in the fairytale if one doesn't believe there was a fall of man to atone for?

I am almost painfully certain I no longer believe the Bible as the literal word of God anymore, so much so that it seems silly to even write about it as though I once had. I'm trying to make sure I don't make a mistake in applying reason and logic, and just assume that means Christ has to go as well.
Why does it matter whether the basic claims of traditional Christian theology are true?

How do you be a Christian if you think that the story and theology of the New Testament is basically mythological?
If someone thinks that Adam and Eve are a myth, does it follow that Christ The savior is also? Quote
09-16-2011 , 01:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Original Position
Why does it matter whether the basic claims of traditional Christian theology are true?

How do you be a Christian if you think that the story and theology of the New Testament is basically mythological?
I'm exploring the validity of what I've always thought to be true. I am basically asking the same question out loud. I wanted to hear any alternative to the obvious conclusion that it's hard to hold that view of scripture and be a Christian.
If someone thinks that Adam and Eve are a myth, does it follow that Christ The savior is also? Quote
09-16-2011 , 01:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Acemanhattan
This is where I end up too.

I just am growing uncomfortable with all the mental gymnastics required to maintain my Christian beliefs, at least ones that resemble the well intended Christianity I inherited from those I've learned from.
Then why give all faith to your mental gymnastics?

We put faith in a person not in our own heads.

Pro.3:5-6; Acknowledge God in all you do and He will guide you
in all things.

Prov 3:5 (KJV) Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean
not unto thine own understanding.
Prov 3:6 (KJV) In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall
direct thy paths.

Prov 3:5 (MSG) Trust God from the bottom of your heart; don't
try to figure out everything on your own.
Prov 3:6 (MSG) Listen for God's voice in everything you do,
everywhere you go; he's the one who will keep you on track.

Pray then plan. Not plan then pray:
http://www.abible.com/devotions/2007/20070604-1416.html
If someone thinks that Adam and Eve are a myth, does it follow that Christ The savior is also? Quote
09-16-2011 , 02:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Acemanhattan
I deduct this from the belief that you aren't a total thoughtless clown, that you don't by practice simply believe everything in the Bible because "God says". If you -- as fond of logic that flows systematically as you seem to be -- believe that faith is a virtue, or anything else the Bible says, it is not simply "Because the Bible says".

If I am correct, you can do better to answer the question I posed about faith than saying "God favors it". The why he favors it is important. I want to know the reason faith is a virtue, in your opinion.
"God favors it" was only part of my answer. You didn't respond to the necessity part. Faith, as generally defined meaning not only religious faith, is necessary for any kind of reasoning about reality including what is based on physical observation, etc. Therefore, faith is a virtue.

One of the major elements of where I place my faith is in the Bible as the word of God. I can't prove it, nor can you disprove it. So it's a judgement call. Given that as a premise, God's moral authority follows regardless of my inability to reverse-engineer his decisions. Accordingly, "why he favors it" is nonessential information, in addition to usually being impossible to know anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sommerset
Why did adam have the power to do this?
God gave him this power as part of Adam being made in his image. Unfortunately, Adam chose to misuse it despite being warned of the consequences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acemanhattan
I just am growing uncomfortable with all the mental gymnastics required to maintain my Christian beliefs, at least ones that resemble the well intended Christianity I inherited from those I've learned from.
I dislike mental gymnastics also. A lot of problems arise when trying to reconciling non-Biblical traditions that diverge from what is in the actual Bible. These I will agree are the cause of a lot of problems.
If someone thinks that Adam and Eve are a myth, does it follow that Christ The savior is also? Quote
09-16-2011 , 02:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Concerto
Salvation is through Jesus, yes. The authors conveying the story of Adam and Eve in a metaphorical style (SOP for the times) does not diminish this in the least. If you accept the Bible to have been inspired by God, then what you can say for certain is that its authors' intended message is correct. If determining an intended message takes a little work when dealing with ancient texts, it is by no means impossible and happens all the time.



What is divinely inspired is the message that was intended to be conveyed.

The exact words? Probably not. The metaphors? Probably sometimes though not always.
Are the metaphors themselves divinely inspired? Because as literary devices go, Adam and Eve is a pretty crappy metaphor. And why don't we have the literal story?
If someone thinks that Adam and Eve are a myth, does it follow that Christ The savior is also? Quote
09-16-2011 , 02:20 AM
Best to be particularly aware of your surroundings and really know other people when engaging in mental exercises anyways.

"Do not be misled: Bad company corrupts good character". (1 Corinthians 15:33)
If someone thinks that Adam and Eve are a myth, does it follow that Christ The savior is also? Quote

      
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