I'll try to keep this short.

I'm very upset about the general trend of most discussions hovering between Christianity/Atheism and ignoring some very important things that to me are the heart of the matter.

I'll ask you this...

If you were God.. and had to design the world to work according to a general principle of karma, how would you go about it?

I ask this question in particular for many reasons - a simple one is that the answer to this question actually gets to serve as a nice reference point to what the world 'should be like'. And if the supposed God of the Bible falls short of that ideal then there must be something wrong with His Almightidness.

Most people feel that evil acts should be punished and good acts rewarded.. Yeah.. Well.. If it were only as simple as that.. How should a perfect God go about the workings of karma?

I really, really hope I get some discussion going. I would write much more on the topic, but I don't want to ramble too much off the start.

I think any valid answer will have to be grounded in a videogame level to have a chance of working.

If I were god, why would I have to design my world with the principles of Karma, why not just make my creatures incapable of doing evil?

-> Sommerset - That's a valid answer actually. "I'd make it so that evil does not exist."

A lot of people when confronted with this idea would answer something along the lines .. "But having such a Heaven would be boring.." or "That's taking away from free will and ultimately results in an inferior creation, because it would diminish the importance of spiritual progression, true freedom etc etc etc.. " "It would be a spiritual dictatorship where you're not really allowed to be yourself, but only an automaton made by God"

I actually don't buy most of those replies.. Frankly, if I couldn't think of something better I'd just do that. At least I'd have a paradise to show for it and not a hellish nightmare like we've got as of now.

--> All-In Flynn - I'm trying to understand what you just said, but I've had no success as of yet.

What I'm trying to get is if you were God and could make the world according to a perfect principle that applied to everything - a sort of ultimate cause/effect principle that would ensure the well-being and justice of creation - what would it be?

That's actually the way ancient Hindu/Buddhist thinkers went about in their meditations and they had some progress on a societal level at least. A large portion of the world has evolved trying to act according to karma and dharma. Dharma here being the supposed duty you received as a result of your karmic actions, which was generally good to follow as it would result in a fullfilling life for you in this life and in the next and a benefit to society as well.

What we have now in Christianity-Darwinism debates is - either God punishes evil-doers super-harshly or there is no good - there is simply survival of the fittest.. Most darwinists actually subscribe to a sort of Nietzschean ideology, without even knowing it. Both stances seem flawed to me.

fyp?

Yea, I would certainly expect the free will objection. To which I would respond that (assuming we are under a christian paradigm) We don't really have free will anyway. Take original sin, for example. I have been convicted of a crime I not only took no part in, I didn't even exist when it occurred.

sorry, i dont follow you.

I really hate to be that guy but you use the word so often I have no choice...

I extend my hand in friendship, and the extent of our friendship knows no bounds.

I know the feeling.

The OP is premised on (a) us understanding the world enough to form an informed hypothetical and on (b) both me and god being/acting rationally.

Be that guy as often as you want/need to. Being a spelling nazi myself (in german at least), I can empathize.

Well.. that topic was about a kind of poetic vision I had after I had thought about this problem on an off for about 10 years. I admit it was optimistic of me to expect people would follow my enthusiasm, but I felt I had to share..

Sort of like a Zen koen that would suddenly hit you, but would be hard to express in words as the point is that it's a weird unexpressable realization..

I suddenly got very high after it hit me and didn't sleep for 3 days, with no chemicals involved.. my mind showing me beautiful visions and ways of thinking I hadn't really known before..

I've tried to keep things more simple here, no?

I admit, in hindsight it's only natural that people were not terribly enthusiastic about it. There were some serious replies here and there (I posted it in another forum too, so they might have been from there).

well I'm pretty much acting like the God that currently exists then, no? Does god care if we understand why Bad things happen to good people (assuming you think its part of a divine plan, of course?)

It's not a big mystery why bad things happen to good people. If they didn't there would be no incentive to be not-so-good. There wouldn't actually be any 'good' people, if their actions didn't go against the current in some way.

Well.. It's kind of a mystery why a benevolent/omnipotent God would allow it and that brings us back to my question.. How would you go about designing the core principle of cause and effect as far as moral choices go...

okay then, why do good things happen to bad people?I wouldnt set up morality as a cause/effect penalty thing. Under my system, it wouldn't even be that people were unable to do evil things, the lexicon would just not even include evil, it wouldnt exist.

Would there be knowingly unhealthy people in your world? What about negligent?

Well.. as I said, that's one good answer and I would work with that..

First I'd like to note that 'evil' generally denotes an act that creates injustice. Evil-doers (if they're not completely mad) hurt others for their benefit. So.. in a world completely devoid of evil - everyone is completely equal. So I guess some people would judge that such a world would stagnate. There would be no penalty for just enjoying the view and so .. no real spiritual development would take place.. There would be no incentive to become more good.

By the way.. I'd like to throw this out, just because I find it interesting. I stumbled across the writing of some not-esp-famous jewish philosopher who wrote that nature tolerates either completely good or completely evil entities and those who hover in between generally tend to die out. Could that be a part of god's plan? Create a world of polarity in which it's actually hard to choose between good and evil, but you kind of had to choose and struggle with it.. so it would result in actual growth.. I'm not saying I buy this.. It was just peculiar enough to throw it in.

There was a vaguely similar thread a few years ago where I offered this:

Might be of some interest.

sure, I don't see how this is a problem.

All-In Flynn --> Why would you deny immortality to your creatures? That strikes me as odd to say the least.

Otherwise - it's a solid answer, so thanks!

Well, a negligent driver may hit an innocent person. Freely intended unhealthiness - say, smoking, or, if you allow it, crack - is some kind of autoaggressive behavior, no?

Because I incline to the notion that existence can only be meaningful if it's finite. But I could be persuaded otherwise.

Sure, I guess I just don't recognize this as 'evil' behavior per se. It seems to me that doing 'evil' requires intent.

Basically, I'm setting up a slippery slope and ask you: "Would you mind stepping here, Sir?"

For example, if someone doesn't put a safety on his gun, his kid might fire a shot with it. If someone doesn't watch over his shoulder during a right turn, he's wilfully accepting the possibility of hitting someone. If someone is negligently using sub-standard building materials, he's accepting the possibilty of a factory in Bangladesh collapsing. Etc.

I understand what you meant, I'm not understanding how I didn't address this concern above. My only contention was that 'evil' would not exist in my world. These acts don't qualify as 'evil' as I understand it.