Or thinks an integral part of mass is prohibited.

Objection - leading question.

Indonesia is not a good example of a moslem majority country that exhibits religious freedom. They may not have explicit laws forbidding ownership of bibles but there are many other issues.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Indonesia

Well, I think that is at least some progress ... how about Bangladesh?

I do appreciate you taking the time for your input on your opinion on religion, I do have to ask one more important question before I can fully respond to you.

Do you think Islam is inferior to your personal belief system? As in your life-choices compared to those of a person whom identifies as Muslim anywhere in the world.

Here is an interesting list of Asian secular states which includes Muslim majority nations , the source is Wiki.

Obv not all the countries on this list (according to western sources) are the best place for Christians to live, IMO North Korea being the first that comes to mind. That does not mean every single one or even the vast majority on the list.

- Azerbaijan
-China
-East Timor
-Georgia
-India
-Japan
-Kazakhstan
-North Korea
-South Korea
-Kyrgyzstan
-Laos
-Nepal
-Philippine
-Singapore
-Taiwan
-Lebanon]
-Syria]
-Tajikistan
-Turkey
-Turkmenistan
-Vietnam

I'm quite certain of the nations in bold there is a significant Muslim population. Although, I may have missed a few.

Actually, the situation in Indonesia is much worse.

That is an incorrect claim , the number is around 1400 according to Wiki, where did you get your source?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_East_Timorese_crisis

Beyond that a section of the country declared it Independence from Indonesia, I'm sure you are aware of the hundreds of thousands of deaths of the American Civil War, when the south tried to secede from the Union.

So that was a war and in 2002 after the useless violence Indonesia recognized the independence of East Timor. We should give Indonesia a little credit considering throughout history most countries are not in favor of relinquishing its colonies or territories. And is a prime example of what a certain non Muslim majority country in the heart of the Middle east should pay attention to.


BTW after its independence times are tough in East Timor,38% of the population lives below the poverty line which is depressing considering it is one of only two majority Catholic countries in Asia. Hopefully things get better for the folks in East Timor.

http://hdrstats.undp.org/en/countries/profiles/TLS.html



Also you gave no mention to any of the facts I layed out, you continue to use strawman arguments, going after cases like where people think its ok to "set down a Quran on the "ground"

Do you have any idea of what it means to desecrate a Quran like that to millions of people around the world ? There is no way Jesus would want any Christian to throw a Torah on the ground, so I would say you need to better understand the context of these situations. Indonesia has a different culture then the countries you and I live in. That does not mean they are savages, I mean whats next, thinking its ok to burn a Quran like Terry Jones?

Find me one sane Muslim who would put any Jewish/ Christian/Muslim holy book on the ground.

Indonesia police are not going into churches rounding people up and in turn purposely making like hell for Christians, I laid these facts out by posting how many churchs and even Cathloic high schools are in Indonesia.

Kid are you going to respond to the points in post #44?

I will repost the main points more succinctly which I find relevant

1) Muhammad had sex with and married a 9 year old girl

2) Muhammad said that Allah hates those who don't accept Islam

3) Muhammad owned slaves

4) Muhammad said it is ok to beat your wife

5) Muhammad encouraged his men to rape enslaved women

6) Muhammad ordered his followers to raid Meccan caravans and steal what they could

7) Muhammad ordered prisoners of war murdered

8) When the Qurayza surrendered to Muhammad's army he ordered that every man from the age of 12 and be up be-headed

9) Muhammad ordered the widows of the murdered Qurayza to be kept as sex slaves

10) Muhammad ordered that 1/5 of all captured women would become his personal concubines

EDIT: note I am not arguing that these things are true. Coolerboy posted this information as fact. I am interested to hear your rebuttal to why these things are either untrue or misunderstood.

You don't want to know about Bangladesh.

Lemonzest, other then the above being an extremely difficult message to read through, seeing that it did not fully explain the Quran at all instead pulling out the most extreme negative information which may not even be true. And again Im unsure of what information coolerboy posts is actually in the Quran until he provides a legitimate source.

Although I did respond in a way to this message in an earlier post in which I laid out actual quotes of the Quran from a legitimate source. BTW Here are those direct quotes from the Quran I posted earlier itt.

Al- Quran 6:151 “…take not life, which God hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.”

Al- Quran 5:32 if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people


Al- Quran 5:2 "Do not let your hatred of a people incite you to aggression."

Al- Quran 16:90 God commands justice and doing good and giving to relatives. And He forbids indecency and doing wrong and tyranny. He warns you so that hopefully you will pay heed.

Find me one sane Christian/Jew who would argue that 5 years in prison is a reasonable punishment if they did.

Since you have asked me questions which I have answered, let me return the favor.

1. Do you think that 5 years in prison is an appropriate punishment for putting a Koran on the ground?

2. Do you think that death is an appropriate punishment for leaving Islam?

There is good and bad ... needless to say though, the Bible nor Christianity is not outlawed ...

So, I mean - there is good and bad, but your blanket statement seems to be false for roughly 20% of the world's Muslim population ( 10% Indonesia and 10% Bangladesh) and around +30% of the world's Muslims if you add in India - they seem to allow the Bible and the practice of Christianity.

Anyways, when you cherry pick wiki or other sources - you can pretty come up with just about anything ...

I do ...

There must come a point where any reasonable and rational person has to ask themselves what the common denominator is when considering these apparent links between these countries and their treatment of people of different faiths. One cannot blame culture. As even places like Indonesia have succumbed.

I also predict that the situation will get much worse for atheists and christians in Indonesia. Christianity is a late entry there. And it has been growing. Some estimates state that 20% of the country is now christian. We will continue to see forceful and violent suppression tactics.

When there is a high degree of correlation, causation must be considered. From what I can see, wherever Muslims are in the majority in a country, religious beliefs of others are infringed in, by mobs, by law, by Islamic terrorist groups.

Christ said that you will know a tree by its fruit. That study above whereby 80% of muslims in that area wanted other religions outlawed is no surprise to anybody who has done even nominal research on this subject. 1/3 of Muslims in the middle east support suicide bombings (also 29% in Egypt and 26% in Bangladesh). 2/3 support the death penalty for apostates.

As for Indonesia, 79% of men surveyed say that women should wear a headscarf covering up their face. 72% of muslims in Indonesia support making Sharia the law of the land. 93% of muslim men in Indonesia believe a woman must always obey her husband. 1 out of 10 believe that suicide bombings are sometimes justified in defense of Islam.

But most striking is this figure: Overall, 8% of Muslims interviewed (worldwide) said that suicide bombing is either often justified or sometimes justified to defend Islam.

http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress....ssing-picture/

Thekid. These are historical accounts. If you dispute them please provide contradictory accounts.

I was wrong in the fact that Muhammad married a 9 year old girl. He actually married a 6 year old girl when he was 53, but being the gentleman that he was he waited until she was 9 to consummate the marriage.

Absolutely none of these verses are blanket commands not to harm others who don't believe like you do.

Again, I have bolded the relevant parts.

provide a citation and then Kid will more likely respond.

Kid,
Saying the list is "hard to head through" is a cop out. It is a cleanly laid out numbered list of points which I made even easier to read by removing Coolerboy's commentary.

This thread is about mitigating Islamaphobia right? It would be helpful to answer some of the tough questions.

This is undisputed except for one account which claims that she was 10 when they consummated. Point #2 is the only one that thekid has disputed as it is the only one that he could ever dispute because there are many contradictions in the Quran. In reality Muhammad did say that, but the Quran also has verses which contradict that statement. Every other point is undisputed. I asked him to refute these points knowing that he'll never be able to because these are undisputed historical facts.

As a fellow Catholic, could you say one nice thing about the teachings of the Quran? Because in the Bible which you continue to allude to.. it says to treat your enemy with love, and in the Quran it says a similar statement of Al- Quran 5:2 "Do not let your hatred of a people incite you to aggression." . And it seems that you view Islam as the enemy here which (and I hope you don't) is not reasonable.

Here is some context:

Slavery
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Islam

Apostasy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Islam

Kid, Care to comment on apostasy and slavery in Islam? Seems pretty bad IMO even with a very charitable reading.

Thekid. Just google Aisha wife of Muhammad. I'd challenge you to find any account saying that he didn't have sex with a 9/10 year old child.

btw you have again avoided the main topic of the thread and inserted your argument of how much you dislike Islam. Your technique in this post is highlighting one country(which is the biggest Muslim majority in the World) in which you provoked me into defending, a topic btw in which I would say you are taking all the extreme negatives without providing one positive aspect of Indonesia .

The main point is you have been proven wrong on the your original bible issue in the Muslim majority countries, and now it seems like you resorting to other tactics to negate Islam. Like trying to use one country, Indonesia, as your newest concern. You still have not given homage to other Muslim Majority countries whom have women involved in day to day business/government activities.

I would ask you again if you can say one good thing about the Quran?

Also there is no sane Jew/Christain/Muslim who based on the teachings of their books, would work against each other. Islamophiba, racism and bigotry preach the message of working against your fellow man

Doggg If you can agree to my last point, then you should show respect toward Islam as it is still a religion of Abraham

Hey Lemon, I agree with you in the sense we should be making comparisons, which indeed can be tough

How many humans have been killed and military campaigns waged as a result of the policy's and actions of the Americas and Europen nations in the last 90 years? The vast majority of It also had very little to do religion.

Compare that number to the total number of deaths and military campaigns during and for a period of 500 years after the revelations of Muhammad(peace be upon him)