What? This has no relation to my post or your preceding post. Please stay on topic.

I don't have this disease but as an American I feel it's my patriotic duty to become infected with this. How would one go about this...?

Its easy just watch CNN

Here you go.

uhhhhhhh, yeeeeaaaaaa, I'm an American, I try not to do things like watch the news. Ignorant hate is more my thing....

Of course I haven't. I'm not going to spend three hours researching it. Whenever someone has named a "liberal" Islamic country, I have researched those countries and found that they were not as liberal or free as was made out. I have found restrictions and laws in them that are designed to limit the freedoms of christians and others. Since the only ones left are sharia-oriented, I can just safely assume. Therefore, I am still waiting for you to produce a single example of a muslim-majority country that does not restrict the distribution of christian literature, christian bibles, christian paraphernalia, or the freedom of a christian to openly share his faith. Still waiting.

I am curious.

What kind of "catholic" adds "peace be upon him" after mentioning the prophet of Islam?

I will toss out a country just to participate...

How about Indonesia?

I thought they were the left wing propaganda machine, he wants to watch FOX doesn't he?

So there's a lot of this thread I'm missing but you don't address Islamophobia by ignoring the very real challenges aspects of Islam poses and by denying there are practices of greater prominence in Muslim societies that are not morally acceptable.

To what extent this is due to Islam and what extent it reflects other social, regional and political factors isn't something I'm going to get involved in but this thread is noticeable by the way posters are merely reiterating already entrenched positions.

I think it is also important to note that Islam is often a bit more than "just a religion" in a great deal of muslim countries. Ofcourse Islam comes in a multide of variants and denominations, and you would be hard pressed to find single variables that hold true all over. In its most liberal forms it is (like in every other religion) merely a private belief in single practitioners who would never dream of imposing it on others.

However in quite a few countries Islam is a method of studying history, it is a theory of state, it is way of understanding philosophy and theology, it is legal jurisprudence, it is a philosophy and it is a religion. This isn't to say that all these variants are the same either, they are very different both in scope and effect. But people shouldn't overlook the fact that we are not necessarily talking about religion in the sense that we typically view it in the countries we inhabit - where religion is often an "addition" and somewhat of a buffet.

You mentioned Al Ghazali in an earlier thread, and I think this is a name many people should study and read up on.

You're right and I'm not a historian but I wonder whether there are similarities in the relationship between Islamic societies and Christian ones pre enlightenment. I get that Islam will be both a cause and an effect within the dynamic of Islamic societies and that's part of why I think the discussion's difficult but you don't address problems faced by denying they exist.

Islamophobia is a made up term.

You cannot be racist towards a religion and Muslims can be any race/ethnicity.

why do you think Islamophobic means being racist?

What terms aren't made up?

Well this is what this thread is about right? The OP wants to stop islamophobia which he considers racism

Whether he considers it racist or not isn't the point.

I dont think being "Islamophobic" means being racist, Islam isn't a race and followers are comprised of many different races.

I remember reading something a while back where the author was making the point that he believed that the big difference between Islam and Christianity was that Islam hadn't gone through something equivalent to the enlightenment.

sound so you can discuss whether we should oppose islamophobia without considering it racist

I think this is a part of it for sure.

That's a good example,


And fwiw Dogggs first claim in the black hole thread was that most Muslim countries have a ban on Bibles, then in his next post he changed his question and concerns...

His first statement
So Doggg was confronted with the question "what countries is the bible actually banned in Doggg?" here is his response which is different from his opening question,

This is not meant to offend Doggg at all and I think if I knew him personally I would respect him. I would just like to get any notion that almost every Islamic country is not safe for Christians to practice their faith out of the way. There are indeed Christians/Catholics in the Muslim Majority counties who live regular everyday life and to think otherwise IMO would be to misrepresent and forget about them.


"Indonesia is the most populous Muslim country and "according to official figures, Catholics made up 3.5% percent of the population in 2010". "The Church is organized into ten archdioceses and 27 dioceses. There are several active Roman Catholic religious institutes, including the Jesuits, the Missionaries of the Sacred Heart (MSC) and the SVD"

-Indonesia's defense minister is a prominent Catholic



-There are Catholic High Schools in Indonesia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignatiu..._Hardjoatmodjo

-Ignatius Suharyo Hardjoatmodjo is the archbishop of Jakarta and was appointed to this position by Pope Benedict in 2009.

There is another issue as well. The Roman Catholic Church, even for all its brutalities and political meddling throughout the times which should not be excused, was not based on Mosaic law but rather a fusion of Canon law and Roman law.

What this means is that the law is to an extent codified, there is a trial system and there is a legislative body. Essentially the law answers to the ruling body of the church. This system would become the precursor to later European civil law and common law alike. This point is actually often confused by people who believe Biblical law influenced the legal tradition of Europe, which beyond some minor influences is actually very far from true (and thank you for that!). It was Catholic law which would do this.

The later protestant tradition would of course put the interpretation of the holy work into the hand of the believer, which in conjunction with the formation of judicial and sovereign states (the peace of Westphalia) and the enlightenment all did their turn at the wheel of curbing church power.

Hi Donk,

Without giving a once sentence response, what are your general thoughts on a person who has no religious beliefs whom is thinking of becoming Muslim?

Generally what are your thoughts on Islam? try and give a detailed response if you don't mind.

Can we know the NT without the context of the Torah?

It is very difficult to do that, but I will give you my thoughts.

Religion is not something that is spread by reason, it is usually spread by the violent coertion and bullying of children and society. Someone who has no religious beliefs who is thinking of becoming Muslim doesn't hold no religious beliefs because of any objective look at the evidence or the reasons why religious belief is irrational and dangerous but because of not having religious beliefs bullied into them when they are children.

My advice would be to seriously look at all the beliefs that the ideologies of Islam/Christianity/Judiaism/any other religion contain, in the Koran, the Bible or whatever, really look at the actual beliefs, not the platitudes that are spouted by the preachers and the clergy. Take a look at what the religions actually advocate, the first hand evidence you have at your disposal, what they stand for, and all the superstition, fairy-tales and morals and ask yourself "am I ok with everything that I am signing up for here, does this reflect my morality? Am I ok with supporting everything that this religion entails? The violence, the murder, the rape, the genocides, the repression of thought and the vain, murderous God who does all this bad stuff?" If you look inside yourself and figure that the advantages to living under religion (whatever they may be) is good enough that you can live with this, then that's fine, go for it.

My thoughts on Islam is that it is a religion based on superstition, fairy tales, and make believe, like any other. It is a method of controlling the masses so that the select few can get very wealthy and powerful and it is ALL lies.