I dunno. I think we sort of agree. Although, I think you certainly should raise relevant questions, even with "experts," especially when there is plenty of counter-information available out there already. But, my only criticism of the book is that I don't believe that interview trip alone was enough to convince a true agnostic/atheist. I just thought he misrepresented it a bit. I would have liked to see more counter-arguments and debate, but there is plenty of good information in there for people just getting into Apologetics.

The whole point of Pascal's Wager is to throw the evidence out the window and to only look at the consequences. If there were reason to believe Christianity were true (necessary for evaluating which is more likely - which Christianity does lack) then we wouldn't need the 'believing is the smart choice' argument at all.

Well I think different types of people or personality types require different levels of proof and you could easily today require a much greater burden of proof than is necessary for other generations. Proof that wouldn't even make sense to them because they weren't as educated across the board or as sophisticated as people today. Imo God made belief easily accessible to all generations. Also there are so many things about faith that are tamper proof. At least I was thinking that the other day though I can't cite an example at the moment.

I've heard DS make this claim from time to time, but I didn't know subfallen shared the view (assuming that's who Sub is). It sounds a bit crass for him.

I've always thought the "mysterious ways" comments clearly ceded this.

I think it implies agnosticism (at least at some level) but I'm not sure how that ties in with subfallen. In my experience he usually assumes people are smarter than they actually are, not dumber. Telling us we should leave the God-thinking to the experts didn't seem his style.

Other than the Plethoists, theists concede they don't know what god is really up to with "mysterious ways" and " I don't know who goes to heaven... or how" etc.
Since they admit they don't understand the situation they are judging they would be best to leave it to those that do. If they can't even handle that, then they should just flip a coin.

Yeah I agree. Any 'mysterious ways' defences undercut any positive claims you make about God elsewhere.

I doubt I ever said that (link?), if only because I avoid the word 'intelligence.'

In any case, I think you wildly exaggerate the difficulty of identifying sophisticated thinkers. For example, here are ~2.5k of them---the NAS members and associates. (Any criteria for 'sophistication' will surely depend on skill in evaluating evidence, synthesizing arguments, thinking creatively etc.)

I have repeatedly made an almost comically specific point regarding your views on belief in God. When Chomsky was asked whether he believes in God, he replied:

(Emphasis mine.) Now you have previously and incessantly said things to this effect:

(Aside: this also revisits a thread where bunny made a top ten post of all time which you never addressed.) Ok, so we have:

(1) Noam Chomsky, one of the most sophisticated thinkers to ever live, says he can't answer whether he believes that God exists.
(2) You say this is nonsense, since Chomsky can simply look at his life and see if he believes that God exists.

Or...maybe you should immediately abandon this position!?!?

I apologize for the late response. I was busy busting after going deep in another main event (pca) only to be disappointed. meh. Not a brag...win some lose some whine some. WCOOP 65th ME and now 142nd in PCA ME. grrrrrrrrr.

In any case, those that seek shall find. God promises that.

Christ is God.

Since I considering pursuing a law career many years ago I looked at it from that perspective.

The evidence was so overwhelming that I couldn't deny it any longer.

I suggest honestly asking God if he is real and to show you. That's what I did.

Those that have excessive human intelligence have a tendency to blinding pride too (this is not specifically directed at anyone here). This pride makes them think that they are actually smarter than God.

There is always someone smarter, faster, bigger, stronger, etc. unless you are #1 in the world which leaves the rest of us behind.

I asked this in another thread, but why pray?? Doesn't God know what you are going to ask before you ask?? Tbh, I shouldn't even have to ask, he should be doing all he can to get me to believe.

blessed are the morons, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven

Yes, you already said that. The question was what about all of the people who have done this and received nothing?

This is false. If someone convinced you that someone else died and then was magically brought back to life several days later by telling you that a bunch of people told him they saw it then it is probably a good thing you did not wind up going into law (no offense).

He has done everything. He came and died for you. What more is there?

Actually, you are not far from the truth...

Maybe this will help...

Why are Christians So Stupid? - Does the Bible Teach Blind Faith?
by Rich Deem
Introduction

Many skeptics think that Christianity is for people who do not want to think. Christians are often characterized as people who believe whatever they are told by the church. Faith is thought of as something that one believes blindly - with no supporting evidence. However, this viewpoint does not represent biblical Christianity. In contrast, to what many skeptics believe, the Bible challenges its readers to test it and come to a reasonable conclusion. There are those Christians who believe blindly, and certain cults (such as Mormonism) teach that truth can be known through prayer. These ideas are heretical to biblical Christianity and often lead to deception, making such individuals susceptible to conversion by the cults.


Test everything. Hold on to the good. (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

What does the Bible teach?

Contrary to what many non-believers think, the Bible does not teach blind faith. In fact, the Bible actually tells believers to test everything.1 No other "holy" book tells its readers to actually put what it says to the test. The Bible can make such a statement because it passes the tests of truthfulness that no other "holy" book can. God Himself in His revelation to Isaiah stated, "Come now, and let us reason together..."2 God, the Creator of humans and human reasoning ability3 wants us to use that ability to determine His plan of salvation. How do we determine if the Bible is true? We test it and see if it is reasonable. Psalm 19 tells us that the universe "declares the glory of God" and that this "voice goes out into all the earth."4 This site is dedicated to showing how the universe declares God's love and design. In fact, the Bible says that the evidence for God's design of the universe is so strong that people are "without excuse" in rejecting God and His plan of salvation.5
The importance of the mind in the life of believers and non-believers

The Bible encourages people to use their minds. In fact, the Bible says that God created humans and endowed them with a mind so that they would use it.6 The Bible says that God and Jesus Christ will test the minds (as well as the hearts) of people.7 One of the most important prophecies to Christianity, the prophecy of the New Covenant,8 fulfilled in the coming of the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth,9 describes the changes God does in both the heart and the mind of those who are transformed.10 The Bible says that those who do not believe do so, in part, because of deception in their minds.11 This deception leads to hostility to God and defiling of their minds and consciences.12 The mind is also very important in the life of a Christian. The Christian is encouraged to set his "mind on the things above."13 We are also encouraged to direct our "mind to know, to investigate, and to seek wisdom and an explanation."14 Christians should use their minds in all aspects of life15 and "always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have."16 We are to use our minds to experience the reality of the Holy Spirit in order to experience His peace.17 This peace of God, "which surpasses all comprehension" guards both our hearts and our minds.18 Even the act of worship (both prayer and singing) should involve both the spirit and the mind.19


The mind of the prudent acquires knowledge, And the ear of the wise seeks knowledge. (Proverbs 18:15)

The Bible encourages people to acquire knowledge

The book of Proverbs in the Old Testament gives practical advice for living, raising children, and making good choices versus bad choices. Many of the verses discuss the importance of acquiring knowledge and wisdom,20 even to the degree of choosing knowledge over riches.21 Faith is of utmost importance to the Christian. But the Bible doesn't say to limit your belief to faith alone. In fact, it commands us to add first moral excellence then second knowledge.22 Daniel, one of the greatest examples of faith, who had an amazing prayer life, was also a man of great knowledge and intelligence, and used this ability to witness to Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.23 Solomon, in his prayers to God, asked for wisdom and knowledge, both of which God granted to him.24
Biblical faith is based upon knowledge and sound doctrine

God wants believers to be knowledgeable, especially regarding their faith. A lack of knowledge leads to apostasy and destruction, as God Himself said to Hosea, "My people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge."25 A zeal for God is not sufficient to please Him, since many Jews have this zeal, although it is misplaced since it is "not in accordance with knowledge."26 The Bible encourages believers to have a knowledge-based faith, built upon sound biblical doctrine.27 When Paul preached the gospel, he did it through reasoning from the scriptures and not an appeal to blind faith.28 Paul, in his letters told believers to do away with childish thinking and reasoning.29 Christians are advised to set an example for others in teaching by modeling "integrity, seriousness, and soundness of speech."30 The physician Luke, in his prologue to his gospel revealed that he determined the truth through careful investigation:

...it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to write it out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus; so that you might know the exact truth about the things you have been taught. (Luke 1:3-4)



Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'" (Matthew 22:37)31

What did Jesus teach?

Jesus extended the first of the ten commandments to love the Lord not only with our hearts and souls,32 but also our minds.33 Jesus almost always taught using parables and examples. He did this specifically so that people would think about what He was saying. In fact, in many instances, Jesus would ask people what they thought of what He said.34 When Jesus was resurrected from the dead, he explained the scriptures to his disciples and "opened their minds" so that they could see how He fulfilled the messianic prophecies.35


Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD (Isaiah 1:18)36

Conclusion Top of page

The Bible teaches a rational faith, based upon knowledge and refined through testing. Christians are encouraged to use their minds in all aspects of life, including our spiritual life - prayer and worship. God values truthfulness to a high degree and wants us to know the truth about his creation, the nature of His being and His scriptures. Ultimately, God wants all people to come to the knowledge of the truth of His salvation through Jesus Christ,37 so that they may spend eternity with Him in the new creation.

God is not the author of confusion. If someone really wants to know if God is real and if Christ really did die for all of their sins so they could spend eternity with Him they would get the answer. The more important questions are...

1. Are they listening?
2. Do they really want to know that God and Jesus Christ are real.

Truth is not relative. Just because someone says something it does not make it true. Just because someone believes something it does not make it true. But, if God himself said it.......it is true.

[QUOTE=Deorum;24113009]Yes, you already said that. The question was what about all of the people who have done this and received nothing?

[QUOTE=Yeshua_Won;24164297]God is not the author of confusion. If someone really wants to know if God is real and if Christ really did die for all of their sins so they could spend eternity with Him they would get the answer. The more important questions are...

1. Are they listening?
2. Do they really want to know that God and Jesus Christ are real.

Truth is not relative. Just because someone says something it does not make it true. Just because someone believes something it does not make it true. But, if God himself said it.......it is true.

How do I know if I am not listening?? I feel like I am listening, but I am receiving no answer. And yes, I obv want to know if God and Jesus Christ are real .

You still haven't answered my question regarding prayer. Why should we pray if God is all knowing??

The problem is that when you do test the bible it fails. There is no support that what it claims is true. That is the reason Christianity takes blind faith, not what is written but what is actually practiced.

You keep saying this but the objection is specifically that there are people who have done what you claim but have not received the result you claim they will.

For the people we are discussing, the answers to both of these questions are yes.

Exactly right. But you do not seem to realize this. You are exemplifying the very thing you claim is not true about Christianity and blind faith. And here you are clearly believing something simply because you want it to be true, not because the evidence supports it. The fact that there are people who honestly search for god and receive nothing, as well as those who do the same and receive something opposite what others do is evidence that what you claim about god revealing himself to those who seek him is false. And if you really think that none of these people are really listening or want to know the truth (in fact, many of those asking are believers and want it to be true) then you are very clearly the one who is accepting something on blind faith by ignoring the evidence to the contrary merely because you want it to be true.

Or, the more likely explanation: you either hallucinated what you perceived as a religious experience, of you wanted to believe so strongly, your mind confirmed that belief for you. It's ok, some people were just born to be followers. They are to weak to exist without some cosmic parental figure watching over them. It's not coincidence that religiously inclined people are easily controlled and manipulated. They have been for thousands of years.

And atheists and non-theists are exempt from control?

The USSR, the Buddhist Chinese and Buddhist Cambodians show otherwise.

The difference is it is not atheism being used to control those people.