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10-02-2009 , 02:13 PM

#51

EvilSteve

Midlife Crisis

Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 13,195

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron W.

"Seems to you..." do you understand the role of presupposition here?

Edit: Also "You need strong evidence" for one but not the other. Again, presuppositions...

"Seems to me" is really all I can say about which explanation is simpler. I don't have objective criteria to establish which explanation is simpler, and if you want to argue that God answering the prayers is the simpler (thus more likely) explanation, I don't see a way to demonstrate that your perspective is wrong. If I believed in God, that might actually seem to me like the simpler explanation. Looks like we've reached an impasse.

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10-02-2009 , 03:04 PM

#52

tame_deuces

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron W.

You say it would be extremely easy to do it, so please do it. I need to see what you mean by "unique measurable effects."

Unique - limited in occurrence to a given class;
Measurable - capable of being measured;
Effect - power to produce results;

For example; Your prayer to god will have to produce something measurable me talking to my cat or wall can't. It doesn't matter what.

And this is ecactly what I have written over and over and over in this thread. If you are going to ask me one single more time to explain to you the meaning of simple english statements then I am going to have to conclude that you are linguistically unable to carry a debate in the English language regarding this subject.

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10-02-2009 , 03:09 PM

#53

Aaron W.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by tame_deuces

Unique - limited in occurrence to a given class;
Measurable - capable of being measured;
Effect - power to produce results;

For example; Your prayer to god will have to produce something measurable me talking to my cat or wall can't. It doesn't matter what.

And this is ecactly what I have written over and over and over in this thread. If you are going to ask me one single more time to explain to you the meaning of simple english statements then I am going to have to conclude that you are either linguistically unable to carry a debate in the English language regarding this subject or you have a fetish for question marks.

Or maybe I'm just waiting for you to demonstrate that claim that

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yes it would be extremely easy to show unique measurable effects from 250 conversations with my mom.

Perhaps I would like the ability to model my study after yours to avoid running around in circles.

For example, if I say that I receive peace after I pray that I don't receive when I talk the wall, surely you wouldn't accept this as evidence that prayer worked.

(Edit: Peace can be measured in a change of heartrate or blood pressure.)

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10-02-2009 , 03:14 PM

#54

tame_deuces

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron W.

Or maybe I'm just waiting for you to demonstrate that claim that

Perhaps I would like the ability to model my study after yours to avoid running around in circles.

(Edit: Peace can be measured in a change of heartrate or blood pressure.)

You have problems with my claim that 250 conversations with my mom can produce a measurable effect that 250 conversations with my cat or wall can't?

That's either you insulting my mom or you're being obtuse on purpose.

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For example, if I say that I receive peace after I pray that I don't receive when I talk the wall, surely you wouldn't accept this as evidence that prayer worked.

It goes without saying you can't be your own control.

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10-02-2009 , 03:16 PM

#55

Aaron W.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by tame_deuces

I'm being patient in waiting for you to produce the evidence of your claim.

Edit: Actually, I don't need the evidence, I just need the design of the experiment.

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It goes without saying you can't be your own control.

What would the control be for the study involving your mom?

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10-02-2009 , 03:22 PM

#56

Arouet

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron W.

Or maybe I'm just waiting for you to demonstrate that claim that

Perhaps I would like the ability to model my study after yours to avoid running around in circles.

For example, if I say that I receive peace after I pray that I don't receive when I talk the wall, surely you wouldn't accept this as evidence that prayer worked.

(Edit: Peace can be measured in a change of heartrate or blood pressure.)

The feeling of peace that you get can also be based on your perception of what is going on. This can be achieved in several ways: such as with meditaton, etc. It may be the ACT of praying that gives you these good feelings, and this can be entirely internal. This can not be proof of anything other than prayer has a positive influence on you (which may be a perfectly reasonable reason to do it.) It is NOT strong evidence of an external being listening to your prayer and interacting with you. The most that can be said is that that is one possibility.

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10-02-2009 , 03:24 PM

#57

tame_deuces

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron W.

I'm being patient in waiting for you to produce the evidence of your claim.

Edit: Actually, I don't need the evidence, I just need the design of the experiment.

What would the control be for the study involving your mom?

I think we'll end it there.

Frankly someone who wants a cited article that talking to people can produce results talking to walls can't has probably lost any debate they enter by nature of being unable to ever conclude anything.

I fear that if I find such an article and cite it I would be asked to show how the letters of the article were provably the words that formed in your mind, and I don't really know how to do that.

Have a nice day.

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10-02-2009 , 03:28 PM

#58

Aaron W.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by tame_deuces

Have a nice day.

Thank you. You, too.

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10-02-2009 , 08:58 PM

#59

Vael

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron W.

"Seems to you..." do you understand the role of presupposition here?

Edit: Also "You need strong evidence" for one but not the other. Again, presuppositions...

So if we want to explain something and we have several possible causes, is there a way to pick the right one in a purely rational manner without relying on presuppositions, using everything we know?

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10-03-2009 , 01:45 AM

#60

Aaron W.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Vael

So if we want to explain something and we have several possible causes, is there a way to pick the right one in a purely rational manner without relying on presuppositions, using everything we know?

The statement is bit circular. A 'purely rational manner' requires suppositions as what is 'rational' is a consequence of what is assumed. Furthermore, you piled in a notion of 'what we know' which must also be parsed to distinguish 'what we know because we have concluded it' and 'what we know because we have assumed it.'

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10-05-2009 , 10:05 AM

#61

leprous_hand

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10-05-2009 , 02:04 PM

#62

EvilSteve

Midlife Crisis

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Looks like I was praying to the wrong god.

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11-11-2011 , 03:24 AM

#63

leprous_hand

unclean

Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 16,245

HEAR US LORD!

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11-11-2011 , 11:46 AM

#64

gg911gg

grinder

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 450

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron W.

When atheists say that they "prayed" for something and it didn't happen (or even if it did), what is the actual event that they believe constituted a "prayer"?

Wishing for something in a way that involves mentally or even verbally begging some thing (god, "persuadable universe", whatever) that controls the outcome, even if you know on the rational level that such thing doesn't exist (similiar to having an OCD - you might know that your fear that you'll die if you step on a certain tile is unjustified, but you still avoid stepping on it).

Last edited by gg911gg; 11-11-2011 at 11:56 AM.

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11-14-2011 , 05:44 AM

#65

we're all fishes

banned

Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 454

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kentucky Buddha

According to the christian mythology I do not think that would constitute a prayer. In the desert the devil baited Jesus to turn a rock into bread to feed himself. Similar vetting kind of thing really. I am sure everyone has done the "If you are real then...." thing so I am not comparing EvilSteve to the devil on this point (lol).

The really damaging part is when you survive some unlikely event and people clamour that it was divine intervention. That can mind#$#% a person and naturally it isn't true. The mythology doesn't even claim it will work like that anyway. It rains on the just and the unjust. All the faithful can do is grovel and submit and providence does whatever he wants anyway because he is all wise. Works exactly like chance. Handy.

What science cannot explain does not constitute it as a myth.

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11-14-2011 , 06:41 AM

#66

Duncelanas

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron W.

I can take a shot at this.

I ask my mom for cookies 250 times. She gives me cookies 50 times.
I ask my cat for cookies 250 times. She gives me cookies 0 times.

Measurable effect of talking to my mom with regard to obtaining cookies. Also a measurable effect of talking to my cat -- namely that over 250 trials it seems asking my cat for cookies does not accomplish my cookie-getting goal.

He's asking for a prayer to God that yields a measurably different outcome over a significant amount of trials than if it was just being spoken to a wall, or a plant, or a different god, even. In other words, is there proof of prayer to God having a tangible effect.

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11-14-2011 , 08:56 AM

#67

bluesbassman

veteran

Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,360

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron W.

You don't seem to understand the basic nature of "conversation." If two people have a conversation with each other, is there always an "effect" that follows?

The tortuous rationalizations given by Aaron W in this thread is a classic example of defending the existence of a Dragon in [his] garage.

Note that the only "evidence" he gives of the efficacy of prayer (beyond personal psychological comfort) is someone getting over a drug addiction, which, conveniently, routinely also happens to people who don't pray, and which can't be distinguished from cases where people engage in non-religious personal reflection.

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