Describing a trend and explaining it both historically, with data and allowing for exceptions is not a sweeping generalization. A sweeping generalization would be to say like you; "muslims in the west do not live under Islamic law" (paraphrased).

Back to you; if your argument is not about singular counterexamples - why do you bring them up?

This is from a proper religion forum

Q What did Voltaire mean by "if God didn't exist, it would be necessary to invent him"?

A God gives objective meaning and moral value to human reality.

It's possible to not believe in the deity but accept the moral values.

This should segue into the Noble Lie sometime soon.

No because without the deity the morality is baseless. Not to say that all religious values are useless, but they are usually either redundant ('stone adulterers') or so banal that they go without saying ('unprovoked murder is wrong'). The eastern religions might have salient insights into philosophy (the east was traditionally more spiritually developed than the west) but that doesn't mean a wholesale adherence of eastern values is a good idea. The best thing is to have a basic system that forbids harms as minimally as possible while allowing people to come to their own moral conclusions. Religion doesn't need to be a part of it whatsoever.

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nah, it just makes you ignorant. like all of us. no problem

So I feel kind of bad for starting this thread, but have found some teachings I like -- which if anyone could give me a better reference for would be great.

***

Some major teachings of Islam are:

First is to worship the one and only one God and believe in his oneness.
Second is to witness that prophet Mohamed (peace upon him) as God's prophet and messenger.
Third is to believe in,and practice, ritual prayers, paying the compulsory charity (ZAKAT), fasting Ramadan, and performing Pilgrimage if possible.
Fourth is to have faith in God, all His angels, all His holy books, all His prophets, day of Judgment, and destiny.
Fifth is to fully obey God and his messenger Mohamed (peace upon him) by obeying what they order him/her to do and what they order not to do.
Sixth is to do good deeds for the benefit of his community, nature, and mankind.
Seventh is to observe the Quran Golden rules and Islam morals.

(Obviously I only like the sixth one, but at least it's there.)

"God the Dignified has no mercy for one who has no mercy for others." Reported by Jarir Ibn Abdullah and recorded by Imam Bukhari and Muslim. (#227)

"The strong one is not he who knocks out his adversary; the strong one is he who keeps control over his temper." Reported by Abu Hurairah and recorded by Imam Bukhari and Muslim. (#45) ***(Pretty good advice, I guess)

"None of you is a perfect Muslim until he desires for his brother Muslim that which he desires for himself." Reported by Anas Bin Malik and recorded by Imam Bukhari and Muslim. (#183) ** (Pretty much the golden rule, who can argue with that?)

"Help your brother whether he is an oppressor or an oppressed person. A companion asked: 'Messenger of God (it is true) I will help him if he is an oppressed person, but please tell me how I am to help him if he happens to be an oppressor.' The Holy Prophet (P) answered: check him from doing injustice. Because preventing him from committing aggression is a help to him." Reported by Anas Bin Malik and recorded by Imam Bukhari. (#237)

***

So yeah, I'm not sure where the above is from (just got it from some website) but I tried googling "the most beautiful teachings of the Koran" and that's what I got, so if anyone can direct me to something I'm missing I'd appreciate it.

found some more I think are actually from the koran:


Respect and honor all human beings irrespective of their religion, colour, race, sex, language, status, property, birth, profession/job and so on [17/70]

When you hear something malicious about someone, keep a favorable view about him/her until you attain full knowledge about the matter. Consider others innocent until they are proven guilty with solid and truthful evidence [24/12-13]

Ascertain the truth of any news, lest you smite someone in ignorance and afterward repent of what you did[49/6]

You should enjoin right conduct on others but mend your own ways first. Actions speak louder than words. You must first practice good deeds yourself, then preach [2/44]

Divert and sublimate your anger and potentially virulent emotions to creative energy, and become a source of tranquility and comfort to people [3/134]

Call people to the Way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful exhortation. Reason with them most decently [16/125]



Some of these are really good.

And it isn't just that you have dug up a few "nice" quotes, many muslims genuinely devote themselves to rather laudable principles and deeds as an integral part of their religious practice. It is rather like Christianity in this regard. I might express anger at, say, the influence Christianity has in perpetuating homophobia and injustice on the marriage equality question, but the principle interaction with christianity for many christians is nonetheless often ones with rather more laudable components.

You can't be racist about a religion...wtf is wrong with you? You can be racist about a race, however. Islam as its practiced in many core Muslim countries is a deeply racist religion, so racist it's shocking. It blames the Jews for many things. Many high level imams preach that the Jews are scum, descendents of pigs that need to be wiped off the face of the Earth for the good of humankind. This is mainstream, not fringe.
That's because you live in Canada. Go to a core Muslim country. Failing that, read Infidel, the biography of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who grew up Muslim. You might learn something about the world and about how much of the core Muslim world thinks and acts. Fanatical Christians are harmless children by comparison.

Oh and OP, don't listen to the people who've been brainwashed by a deeply politically motivated liberal education, which deliberately lies and distorts reality to further a political movement for tolerance. That may or may not be a worthy goal, but what they say is so far from reality it's disturbing.

Reality is what it is. Go and actually visit these countries. Read biographies of Muslims. Read the actual words of the Koran and how they're interpreted by Imams. Read the speeches and fatwas of the holiest and most influential men in the religion. That's how you'll know what the religion is, unfiltered by people (such as those who call you racist and ignorant) who have zero clue about this religion or the minds of other people. Read about Sharia law, and its application in real Muslim countries that have enacted it (as the Koran says you should, and as nearly all Muslims ultimately want)

Western Muslims are generally extremely moderate compared to their brethen in core Muslim countries. Talking to Muslims at college will not give you a clear picture of the world of Islam. If you want to learn about Islam as its practiced, and a very interesting life story as well, I'd read Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a former female Muslim.

Unlike Christianity in it's early years, Islam was spread through violent conquest (although the Christians gave it back in later centuries) and the word 'Islam, actually means 'submission', to their god.

With a religion used by it's followers regularly to justify mass murder of innocents, that has death as the penalty for leaving it, that punishes crimes by stoning, decapitation and mutilation, that believes that the non muslims and the non-religious are sub-human and are being done a favour by being put to death (Kill the infidels wherever you find them), I have no problem at all considering Islam one of the 'worst' religions on our planet and don't consider myself racist or prejudiced. The extremes of Islam highlight the worst effects of religious beliefs. If we can't grow beyond them, perhaps we would be better off without religion at all.

It's ironic to me that as much as I detest Christianity (for being a religion..), it may be the only thing standing between us and the Islamic desire that the whole world be Muslim.

lol, ok, why don't you go to Pakistan or Afghanistan and wander around a bit. Come back (hopefully) and tell us how it went?

The core of Islam is not a tolerant religion:

Solely because they are further removed from it's influence and living in countries where a different belief is the one predominantly being urged on people. This is just more evidence of how powerful environmental influences are on our thinking.

groan. Firstly, this is a "heap" argument where you throw every bad thing you can think of at it - without a shred of looking at good things or bad things in other religions - and hope it makes a big enough heap of badness to justify your point. As it turns out all your points in the heap are nonsense.

Christianity has literally used violent conquest to colonize three continents, not to even mention Europe or Asia. This is "modern" but of course the Old Testament is littered with violent conquest. I don't know if you are unaware of the theological meaning of "submit" but Christianity, just as with Islam, is entirely predicated in commandments to its core stories on the idea of precisely this devotion to the deity which is interpreted by many Muslims as a voluntary, loving, and devotional relationship not with the, say, connotation of submit that you might think of in BDSM. Indeed, while certainly Christians have used their religion to justify all sorts of horrors, the overwhelming majority of both Christians and Muslims do not actually go arround causing mass murder. I have many Muslim friends, not a single one thinks I am a subhuman who should be killed. And brutal punishments like stoning are absolutely part of the bible as well.

You seem to be trying to take the most extreme examples you can find in a religion of 1.6 billion people from Afghanistan, ignoring any geopolitical differences and attributing them all to religion, and then just declare your conclusion. Surely you don't think I should judge Christianity on the backs of the most extreme crazies in Uganda. .

That may not be the best question to be asking MB as I think his answer won't be the one you are looking for

Umm no, I think there's enough 'bad' about Islam that it's the 'worst' of the religions, regardless of what's 'good' about it. If you have specific points to make in defence of Islam or comparisons with the 'bad' in other religions through which you believe you can present Islam favourably, by all means make them. We can address them one at a time.

We can start with how Christianity started as a religion of pacifists and Islam started as religion of conquest and violence?

Thanks for the introduction to the phrase 'heap argument' though, I hadn't heard that one.

I actually already argued what you're saying here, I'm not sure why you're repeating it to me?

I understand that, it's still a very dogmatic name and quite representative of Islamic attitudes. It embodies what I dislike the most about Islam which is that I consider it an 'in your face' religion. Through rituals and laws, believers are never allowed to forget that they're Muslim, it's a very controlling religion.

lol @ I don't know any bad muslims. Neither do I. You'll excuse me if I don't take your personal experiences into account, I wouldn't expect you to take mine into account. If I'd only ever met Muslims who were radical Jihadists, I doubt it would influence your view would it? You might even consider that it had unduly influenced mine and that I wasn't being objective...

AFIK, no Christian countries still do it? It still happens in Muslim countries, justified by reference to the Koran.

No I simply used the extreme examples that were readily available to me, in fact I barely touched on all the examples available to me. I didn't ignore geopolitical differences and you forgot Pakistan. I won't mention all the other countries where it's not particularly safe to be a non-Muslim right now, you should know them.

Anyway, I think you can judge something on extreme versions of itself. Take Buddhism for example, taken to the extreme it becomes and even more peaceful and loving belief system. That probably puts it at the top of the 'nice' belief systems charts. Now, what's at the bottom?

I wasn't going to respond to this post, but I found this story in the news just too timely: http://edition.cnn.com/2013/03/22/wo...hes/?hpt=hp_t1
The old testament - chronicalling the "start" of christianity - is chalk full of violence and conquest. And since then christian followers have continued on with millennia of unspeakable violence and conflict. Don't get me wrong I know you are trying to make some point that the judaic-christian schism occurred at a time of (relative) peace in the roman empire unlike all the violence that came before and after...but who cares? Is this millennia old historic point supposed to somehow get you to the idea that islam is worse than christianity? It is naught but throwing **** on the heap.

uke_master, have you actually been to Saudi Arabia or any of the countries where there's a large Muslim majority? Have you actually seen Sharia law in practice?

I'm no fan of Christianity, but to say that Christianity is as bad as Islam, or the both have equal effects on human behavior, is absolutely absurd.

Christianity is the Old Testament (violent, nasty) followed by a messenger of peace and love and "turning the other cheek". Its message is one of passivity.

Islam is the Old Testament plus a diminished Jesus plus a warmongering middle aged pedophile (yes, that's 100% true) who sets an example of how to live which includes cutting off fingers, strict observation of fundamentalist practices, taking of slaves, destruction of infidels, hatred of Jews and a lowered status for non Muslims.

Is it any wonder that they're acting the way they do when their holiest, most recent example is a man who was brutal to enemies, Jews and infidels?? Is it any wonder that their women are treated like property? Is it any wonder that the brutal Sharia law is implemented?

You really need to read Infidel, a biography of a black former Muslim woman (it hits all the points on your liberal arts reading list!) who grew up in these countries. And then come back and make the same statements about Islam. Your are arguing from a position of extreme ignorance.

Have YOU been to Saudi Arabia, or is this just a standard you impose on others but not yourself? Given your comment about sharia law, i suspect not. Now if you want to accuse me of "arguing from ignorance", let alone extreme ignorance, you have to specify what it is that I am ignorant of. What fact - precisely - is it that you think I don't know? Note that I have not asserted the two religions have identical effects on human behavior.

Your source is twaddle.

"The TV programme, broadcast 10 days ago, highlighted the fact that Hirsi Ali had falsified her original asylum application in Holland, saying that she had not come from war-torn Somalia as she claimed, but from Kenya, where she had lived peacefully for 10 years. The fact that she had lied was well-known, retorted Hirsi Ali, making the point that was she was fleeing a forced marriage. Not so, said van Dongen, using testimony from her brother and husband to allege that the marriage was not made under compulsion. Nor van Dongen said, was Hirsi Ali raised in a strict Muslim family."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006...ke.theobserver

The brother and husband? The same ones who disowned her for the grave sin of choosing to divorce her husband? It's very patriarchal of you to believe them and not her.

None of what you wrote is contradicted in the book, which is a factual account. I guess as a beautiful, intellectual young woman she freely chose to marry a much older, disgusting man and go into bondage having his kids. That makes sense. I guess she forged the scans of the letter containing a horrible response from her father when she said, very politely, that she was divorcing the husband she was forced into marrying? I guess she faked the scars (as millions of other Muslim women have) on her genitilia from when was cut and sewed up as a child for proven purity for her (family chosen) much older husband when the time came to be married off? I guess she lied about some of her 13-15yo friends in high school being married off to 30+ yo men against their will, and being brutally raped on their wedding night? I guess the horrific murder of her best friend (reported worldwide) who dared to make a video about Islam, was made up? And the fact that the killer pinned a note to his chest with a knife, a note addressed to her? I guess the constant security provided for her because of death threats and attempts by Islamists was all a farce?

Admit it, your mind is completely closed to anything that contradicts your liberal education.

I spend a few years in Bahrain as a child, my father was an expat engineer. My mother couldn't go outside the compound without my father - she would get jeered and spat on if she dared to walk the streets alone as a woman. Shopkeepers would refuse to serve her.

What comment? Are you even aware how Sharia law works? Do you think it right that a woman's testimony has less worth than a man's? That a person should be killed for leaving Islam? That the life of a Muslim is worth more than the life of a infidel or Jew? That gays and adulterers should be stoned to death?

I think you are not aware of the worldview of the majority of Muslims where Islam holds sway. I think you do not realize how the example of Muhammed from their holy books perpetuates all manner of evil - from thousands of young men running across minefields to detonate them in the Iran/Iraq war because they believed they would end up in paradise, to the horrible subjugation and subhuman status of women in these countries, to the deeply racist and irrational attitudes toward Jews (sourced from the Koran and Muhammed), to the totalitarian desire to establish Sharia over the entire Earth, shared by most of the Muslim population.

If you are aware of these things and think that Christianity is just as bad as Islam, or that Islam (unlike Christianity) doesn't play a big part in creating the rather awful and backward existence of many people the countries that are deeply Islamic, then I don't know what to say.

She makes it up as she goes along telling Western conservatives what they want to hear. She has no credibility. Please find a better source if you want to learn about Islam. How about a proper scholar like Tariq Ramadan ?

Have you even read the book, or do you get everything through third party sources?

I have not read Tariq Ramadan, but I have read and gone to talks by other educated Muslim scholars and apologists such as Ameer Ali. What they argue is not how Islam is practiced by the majority of people in Islamic countries. Moreover it is contradicted by direct quotes from the Koran and most of the preachings of the Imams, who most people listen to. Do you have any particular writings of Tariq Ramadan you recommend? I am happy to read and decide for myself rather than seeking things which reinforce my worldview, as you are with Ali. I would guarantee you that after reading the book you will not think it is fabricated.

The Koran is a beautiful book in many ways. Its sense of submission to something greater, its sense of certainty, its focus on eternal rather than earthly life is profoundly beautiful (I'm not religious). Islamic architecture and designs are glorious, I have several in my house. The idea of maintaining one's dignity of spirit by covering up is a noble one, especially compared to the heavily sexualized West.

But the reality is that Islam is a brutal, 7th century tribal religion (just like the Old Testament, with even more warmongering thrown in) and the strong example set by Muhammed (polygamy, child sex, warmongering, Jihad, killing and maiming of infidels and hatred of Jews, death for blasphemy) continues and will continue to shape the Muslim world in a way Christianity does not and can not. This deep reality and plain text cannot just be wished away by clever apologist scholars.

I have seen what she says and it displays ignorance of the religion.

How do you know and why do you profess to have more expertise than leading scholars who have spent decades studying it ? It seems to be me that you are spouting hatemongering nonsense. You can take short passages or single sentences out of any book to give a bad impression but it's nonsensical to do it.

If you'd read the book you'd know she barely talks about the religion. She talks about the experiences of herself and those around growing up in Somalia, Saudi Arabia and Kenya. Naturally that intersects a great deal with religion as religion is everything in these countries. Women are locked in compounds in Saudi Arabia and can't go out without an escort. They cannot refuse their husband, and if he is cruel, he can beat them as he wishes. They must offer themselves for sex whether they want to or not. Hundreds of millions of women live like prisoners to men they were forced to marry because of what is written in the Koran and how it is interpreted by the Imams. What a leading Western oriented scholar/apologist says has little relevance compared to the lived experience.

And I'm not taking passages out of a book - I am looking at how Islam is:

a) Interpreted in a majority of Islamic countries, including the most Islamic ones like Saudi Arabia and Iran
b) Practiced by those who believe in it most devoutly

If Islam was practiced like Christianity mostly is (love, tolerance) with secular ideals thrown in, for example as some Sunnis do, or it was widely practiced in Gnostic manner without prescription on behavior and freedom, as some very small sects of Islam do, then what is written in the Koran would be irrelevant and I would have few criticisms. But it practiced largely as the Koran is written, and the life of Muhammed with all of its nastiness and 7th century bigotry (as well as his kindness and fairness) is widely followed as an example of how one should live.

But if you want to talk passages, I'm happy to get your thoughts on some.