How about the metric of how many Sikhs are in the Indian Army ?

I'll give you some numbers. Sikhs comprise 2% of the population but 30% of Indian army officers according to the armytimes. As I said the ideal set down by their religion is to behave like a "saint soldier". I'm sorry if you don't like the facts but please don't shoot the messenger.

I mistook what you were trying to say, my mistake.

Bride, 8, dies of injuries on wedding night in Yemen

And I'm sure that the majority of muslims will be as horrified by that as you and I. As will the majority of Yemeni's as will the majority of men.

I think there's a problem when we try to infer Islam the dominant cultural determinant in a case like this. If it's not acceptable to the majority of muslims it seems inappropriate to blame Islam.The institutions of Islam are failing them and I've no doubt some are complicit just as institutions are failing and have failed children the world over but they aren't being married because they are muslims they are being married because they are poor.

Are you aware of non-muslim countries where child brides are common?

Edit: I'd guess India.

Common law England comes to mind. As do the early Colonies. Neither of which were muslim, nor justified their marriage laws through recourse to religion. (http://www.faqs.org/childhood/A-Ar/Age-of-Consent.html) Going back, historically marriage was commonly held around puberty; the present day insisntence on something like cognitive adulthood or something is fairly new.

Given that the average age of marriage for girls in muslim countries is probably around 16-ish (see list here: http://www****slim-marriage-guide.com/marriage-age.html; this list also calls into question that child marriage is common in many/most muslim countries), and given that ~16 is the age at which you can get married in most US states (with parental approval), you'll need more if you want to "infer Islam [to be] the dominant cultural determinant in a case like this".

No but then I'm not aware of any countries where child brides are common. I see now that it's common in Yemen and Pakistan. But that's not really my point. Would you expect to see a similar correlation between countries where there's extreme poverty or significant imbalances in authority and child abuse?

Nope, it's 21/18 there. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_M...Act#Conditions

Maybe they misinterpreted the Q'uran.

Why was setting the minimum age for girls to get married at 17 'un-Islamic'? This 'marriage' may have been motivated more by financial concerns than religious, and may well have gone ahead even had the new law not been repealed, but I'd still like to know more about why that happened. What 'teachings' did it go against?

Oh, I am sure that poverty plays a role in why the act happens. My point is that Islam is relevant in why this is accepted/legal/tolerated.

I wasn't necessarily referring to countries where child brides are legal. You bring up a good point though that of those in places were underage marriage is commonly practised it is illegal it is only legal in the Muslim countries.
We should certainly differentiate between countries where it happens illegally and where it is the law of the land.

This seems like a really bad way to determine if something is a part of a religion and place blame.

It's clumsy wording but I think there's a point. I'm not really interested in blame rather understanding how it happens and how it can be prevented. I don't think pointing the finger at Islam adds much to that.

I don't know how widely tolerated it is and it seems there will be some correlation between how extensively Sharia law is implemented and whether child marriage is legal but as not all Islamic states allow child marriage I don't know how helpful it is to consider Islam the cause.

If a law that might have prevented this, or at the least would have made it an illegal act, was repealed by conservative Muslims because it was considered 'un-Islamic', I don't see how Islam can't fall under the spotlight here.

I'd like to know which teachings the law 'went against' that it was repealed.

I think it's possible to hold an institution to account or individuals representing an institution to account without considering it inherent within the nature of that organisation to commit those acts. If a christian was to attempt to justify someones enslavement on biblical reference I'd argue that slavery is wrong without arguing that christianity entails a support for slavery.

Sure, I'm often making that distinction when I talk about 'religion' rather than religious individuals or followers of a specific religion. This is why I'm using the word 'Islam' rather than Muslims in this case. At this point I don't know if it's some subset or particular branch of Islamic belief that caused the law to be repealed or if it's a part of Islamic beliefs or Q'uranic interpretation that is common to all of Islam.

But its a point that turns minority religious views to non religious views. Which i dont think is fair to the people who hold a minority view they believe to be religious.


You kind of do point a finger and blame... its pointing away form Islam.

If you want to understand and prevent i think an important question is does the guy marring an 8 year old think its a part of his religion? If the answer is yes. Then part of Islam for him is marring an 8 year old.

Now im not pointing a finger at Islam as a whole. This is a very minority practice i think? But it is a part of some peoples religious views. So pointing away form religion doesn't help to understand.

I disagree but then I disagree that Islam is central to this happening. I've stated that the institutions and individuals are complicit but I don't think anyone rapes a child because they are a muslim and I don't know that this incident should be cited as evidence that Islam is worse than other religions.


It's Kuwati muslims leading the outcry against this. There are Yemeni's campaiging against this and Sharia is only partially implemented by a majority of Islamic states. I have agreed as earlier that I expect the institutions and individuals of Islam in Yemen are complicit but that it's not inherent to Islam.

Just as child sex abuse isn't inherent to the catholic church or the British Broadcasting Company.

You disagree minority religious views should be accepted as religious views?
Never said it was inherent. Said it is the religious view of some.

No I disagree that it turns a minority religious view into a non religious view. It's a behaviour that some may look to find justification for but being a muslim didn't make him a child rapist. Just as being a priest didn't non child abusers into child abusers.

On what grounds? We know that the a law making this act illegal was repealed because it was considered 'un-Islamic' so until we know more about that, I don't think you can rule out 'Islam' being central to this issue.

That does not mean that all individual Muslims share these values.

When did this become an issue of rape 'because they are a Muslim'? I don't think anyone is saying that.

I discovered this while doing some research on this issue:

I'm not certain if this is a general rule or if it only applies 'in' the Vatican but 14/15?

I think saying.

"If it's not acceptable to the majority of muslims it seems inappropriate to blame Islam."

Does turn minority views into a non religious views. Or at least takes away credit where credit is do.

The majority of Christians at one time thought slavery was morally acceptable within their religion. A minority didn't. I would of had to look at a minority view of like the Amish as a non religious views and give their religious beliefs no credit for fighting against it.


But alright i guess im kind of just being nitty and doing that uncharitable reading thing.


Im not really in the guys head so i wouldn't want to say it was justification or doing what he had been thought to do within and as a part of his religion.

I've explained the grounds and I'm not getting into a back and forth with you on this because I really don't expect it to be productive.

Alright. Dont think you are going to find that understanding though by going your route.