Incomplete and imperfect doesn't imply shameful, sinful, or deserving of hell.

Many religions acknowledge humans as incomplete and imperfect, and have for many thousands of years.

Yes and no. Many religions acknowledge the problem but say there's a way we can fix that - that we are inherently redeemable or can earn our way to paradise through good deeds. Again, it's an important distinction. Christianity has the lone dissenting voice (as far as I know), and even though large portions of the New Testament are devoted to this idea, many Christians (and most non-Christians) seem to miss it.

And only Buddhism says that neither personal merit nor personal guilt can exist. The symmetry and completeness of this doctrine makes its truth self-evident, right?

Your "argument" is nothing but a covert appeal to Western chauvinism.

I doubt Buddhism says this exactly. It preceded Christianity so it didn't address it.

I think it is more in the nature of Buddhism to dismiss issues. By not emphasizing conflict Buddhism seeks to achieve a passive peace for the individual but if I've misinterpreted Buddhism you can always show me a passage.

Well there are a range of different ways theists achieve a belief in God and it can be contrary to what they are used to on 2+2 because there is a lot of group peer pressure people get caught up in here. A lot of posters have played the argument game so long that they forget their initial experience of reading the Gospels. Theists seem to think they have to go around proving their intelligence all the time. I don't believe that. I think a lot of theists believe on the man himself Jesus Christ and they do that by spotting his character which is divinely revealed in the Gospels.

Because this is an internet poker forum dominated by math/science/computer geeks people forget the people component. I think if you ask a lot of theists on here and if you think back yourself you were actually "people smart" or aware of human psychology when you recognized the superiority of Jesus and his attributes. No one talks like he does. Its this medium and the community character of 2+2 that dictates logic.

I used to get annoyed when I saw posters dig at Jib and say he's not smart because he's a car salesman. Car salesman are smart. They are the ultimate in people smart. They need people savvy to close deals. The irony is no one recognizes that people smart is just as important as math in poker. At least they used to recognize it a lot more.

So just think back when you first recognized Jesus. Sure we all further convince ourselves. There are millions of ways and books to do that but I believe a lot of people forget their initial encounter with Jesus.

Of course the Buddha addressed perceptions of personal guilt. These perceptions are a form of ill will, which is one of the five hindrances to enlightenment. (The others are sensory desire, sloth, restlessness/remorse, and doubt. As expounded in the Samyutta Nikaya, Chapter 46.)

But ill will (guilt) is only delusion. It is attachment to a perception of self. In truth, there is no more guilt than there is merit.

Eh, maybe you've got me there. I'm only capable of thinking in a certain way, as I suspect are most of the people I interact with. It certainly doesn't ring true to anybody I know that they're not at all responsible for their actions.

Treating people as "responsible for their actions" is a necessary fiction for social stability. But that's all it is...a useful fiction. There is no such thing as metaphysical 'guilt' or 'salvation.'

Ha! That's a bold claim. Based on what exactly, Mr. Almighty...?

this is probably the worst post ever as a response that god exists and his book is the bible

can you please explain to me how the bible has any more support for it, than one of the other "holy" books

i would propose to you, that using your theory as the judge, the bible probably has alot less support than alot of other religions books

edit:
i would like to see hard evidence that (1) god exists, (2) that if he does, he gave us a revealed religion, (3) that if he exists, and gave us a religion, that the bible is the most plausible, while holding the most support

it would seem to me, that if there is a god that was the begining, that he would have given this religion to the world first - if we can assume that the all mighty, all knowing, all seeing master of the universe, would probably not have let the worlds people have so many religions that came before the chosen religion (how can you explain the religions that predate judaism?)

Based on the absence of any grounds for doubting it. How I am supposed to doubt that: 'guilt' is a socially evolved disposition in the human brain? Everything counts for it, nothing against it.

Me: '2+2=4'
You: A BOLD CLAIM! BASED ON WHAT?
Me: I don't know how to doubt it.

Couldn't both claims be true ones based on hidden necessity?

But if you want to call a claim 'true' in the normal sense of the word, then you must be able to show what the claim refers to.

There is an infinity of metaphysical properties that we can conjure up:
* People are masks the gods wear for amusement.
* People are defined by the distance between their holy and evil polarities.
* People must be purified of their thetans to be saved.
* With wisdom, you can hear Shiva speak Morse code in a conch shell.

And forever. It's very odd to call any of these 'true' or 'false', because I have no idea how I could come to seriously believe or disbelieve any of them. They just don't refer to anything.

Thanks for the link and thanks for pointing this out because it relates to a discovery I made recently. Reading a book on Spiritual Warfare I finally realized that extreme self guilt or self condemnation is a "satanic" or evil illusion that can be self destructive.

It all goes to balance in this world and what we personally choose to emphasize. Its not that we aren't at fault (fundamentally flawed) because I believe we are. We all have basic personality or character flaws or faults. Its just that we're not suppose to obsess on them to our own detriment though we should try to correct them if possible. The Buddhist way is somewhat different than the Christian way.

In Christianity we acknowledge the fault, repent, ask for forgiveness and move on. Christians just have to realize extreme self condemnation is never from God which isn't so very different from the idea of Buddha's its just the path to arriving at similar conclusions and the way we work things out is somewhat different. Christ is no more condemnatory than Buddha. He came to save people not condemn them and he never wanted us to self guilt or self condemn ourselves either. We only have to attack our problems little by little. The NT says to live one day at a time so the future and our problems won't overwhelm us.

Definitely, letting go is a process. Whether it's a habit of self-loathing or self-congratulation or just self-satisfaction...it's all got to go.

Because there is a solid history of god intervening when there are apocalyptic events on earth. God intervened to help the human race when Hitler was putting innocent people in ovens, God intervened when people flew planes into busy skyscrapers, God also intervened and gave us all the cures to stop the massive amount of pain, suffering, and death caused by disease. This is how we know god will intervene to help stop overpopulation.

I know but this is where people self crucify themselves on Dogma. If you focus on Christ as a benevolent spirit you will get in the balanced place in the middle between the 2 extremes.

Note: we don't deny the problems we just take a softer approach to ourselves. Almost a kind of Yoga Christianity blend.

Can you prove it wasn't divine providence that the U.S. entered the war swinging the tide in favor of the Allies?

You don't think God can hold someone in reserve?

Would we even have science if we didn't have problems to surmount? Are we better human beings for surmounting the problems?

Do you have any evidence that it was? If no, I win.

I don't think god exists, so no.

So by that logic I become a better human being by dealing with problems and suffering? So to become a better human I should hope that my family and friends are murdered so I can be faced with the challenge of overcoming the grief of their deaths? Because hey, that would make me better right? As long as it makes ME better who cares about their suffering! yay!

Only to the atheists and only seemingly in this world. You may have forfeited the next one.

The prophecies say that Israel had to be revived for God to do his final works in this world. Isn't it odd that a demonic group like the Nazis rise up in the middle of the Zionist movement era to try to exterminate the Jews but get stopped a couple of years before the state of Israel is established at the very navel of the world?

Isn't it strange how ovens are like Baal worship?

Isn't it strange how a formerly "dead" language like Hebrew is revived?

If there is a next world or heaven how do you know the Holocaust wasn't a mass spiritual harvesting?

Your worldview is more depressing than mind because I can conceive that many, many of the Holocaust victims are in Heaven. They were God's chosen people after all.

lol this is a good level
others should learn from it

also god has stepped in to stop overpopulation - it is called aids

Square hole and you're holding a round peg. I have nothing else to say here, really.

I don't know that it wasn't. There's just no evidence to believe that it was.

So your point is what people believe should simply be a product of what makes them feel the happiest inside?

the nazis were actually aware of and supportive of the zionist movement

modern day israel is usually not even seen gods revival of the holy land by orthodox jews
a large majority of them denounce the country and see it as going against gods command that they stay in exile

they baal comment would be funnier if the nazis actually used "ovens" for anything other than cremation

considering that the revival of hebrew dated to the 19th century and really came into effect during and after ww1, i am confused as to how that has any connection with nazi germany
if you are not trying to link the two and are merely stating it for effect, then i do agree that it was a rather unique occurance

as to whether the holocaust was a "spiritual harvesting" or whether or not the victims are now in heaven, i will leave to you to decide
i personally dont believe either, i think that the holocaust of ww2, was a result of the depravity of a world war

the jews are not unique in having a holocaust - the word was first (and probably more properly) used to describle the genocide of the armenians during and after ww1
many groups of people (racial, ethnic, etc) have been victims through out mans time on earth
do i believe that any of these genocides or ethnic cleansings have anything to do with a gods will? well i for one dont believe it for a second

while i believe that the evidence for gods existence is less than nothing, i believe that evidence that this gods will is for humankind to kill eachother is somewhere even lessthan that

Hi, I'm madnak.

Now you know someone to whom it doesn't ring true.

Again, the idea that you're suggesting as the core of Christianity doesn't resonate with most non-Christians over the world.

Truly this thread is broadening my horizons. Hi, madnak. Okay, so let's take a step back. What do you think about the world? Did a guy called Jesus even exist, and if so, how much of what the Bible claims about him is true? What do you think about right and wrong, the meaning of life and death? I won't make any assumptions.

I have to admit, it didn't seem like OP was looking for real answers anyway with his tone, but I decided to bite and give 'em. In that spirit, I shall civilly continue with this line of discussion. Reminds me of my younger days, but I suspect now I'm a bit more equipped to not get offended, heh...

On another note, Splendour, I think you need to understand that the stuff you're saying is basically coming off as craziness to the non-Christians here. Try and think like somebody who doesn't believe what you do and read what you're telling them. Empathy is crucial and I think you may be lacking. That's the internet for ya I guess.