I'm surprised you don't see the contradiction.. Read it one more time and think about it..

How do you recognize a genuine faith?

You have selected the following..
[X] a person who is a murderer but believes in Jesus dies.

Following your logic , this persons faith wasn't genuine since he committed a murder so since his faith wasn't genuine he should not be going to heaven, yet you selected that he is going to heaven.

You on the other hand claim that he is going to heaven. Are you saying that his faith was genuine? If it was then why he did not follow the 10 commandments and murdered a person.

Immediately.

This seems to be describing someone who isn't living out their faith. It's not that they're going to lose their salvation, but that they are living in the flesh and not the spirit.

Maybe we're misunderstanding each other, or maybe i overstated/misstated my position. I'm not claiming that all followers of Christ are always doing good works, or that if they don't do enough good works that they lose their salvation. I'm simply explaining the process that should happen.

Alive in Christ - Colossians 2:6-8

Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

If one has faith they are saved(forever). Faith should produce good works. Otherwise one's faith is dead. If it's not genuine to begin with, then it's not faith at all. This is why at baptisms, i think elders should make sure the person being baptized understands the foundational doctrines of God's grace through Christ.

Thats good and all, but it doesn't really answer the core of my question.

I think we both agree on the following:

1. If one has faith they are saved forever.
2. That salvation comes immediately at a particular point in time.

Where we disagree is what happens after #2. Your claim is that if the saving faith was genuine, then their actions following #2 should produce works that are consistent with a genuine faith.

My claim is that one could have a genuine faith immediately at point #2, but their faith may not stay genuine or as strong as it initially was. Therefore, there may be *no* good works, and their faith may *no longer be* genuine. Yet there was a time that it was, and since they are saved forever, they are saved.

My conclusion is that as long as you have genuine faith at least at one point in your life, then you will be saved forever. Do you agree or disagree?

I agree. Sinners gonna sin.

My point was to gskowal that it goes faith-->salvation-->good works, not good works-->salvation/faith

Which to me sounds very unlikely the system an omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent being would rely on.

I'm saying that the murderer wasn't faithfully murdering someone.

If you think followers of Christ have it easy then you have no idea what it entails. But it's worth it.

I don't understand "wasn't faithfully murdering someone." please explain.

why dont you tell us what it entails. Sounds pretty easy to me, and i was a "follower of Christ" for over 15 years.

I think the best way of saying it is that we are to mirror God(Father, Son, and Spirit). This includes:
-Missionary(Luke 10:27; 10:37, Proverbs 31:8; 24:11, Matt 28:19, James 4:17)
-Evangelism(2 Tim 4:2, James 4:17)
-Serving
-Being accountable
-Good works(James 2)
-Suffering with and for Christ(Romans 8:17)
-more and more and more than we can achieve, but we strive for.

But from a biblical standpoint, if you have faith in jesus christ as your lord and savior and you believe that he died for your sins, your in right?

Or could you believe that and still not make the cut? I mean if you truly believe that, you're in right?

Right. Is this rhetorical?

Not required or even expected of all Christians. Ask Concerto. Plus missions aren't so bad, ive done my fair share.

ditto, no different than being in Sales imo.

really depends on your personality. some find this easy some don't. plus non-believers have to serve in day to day life unless they want to be a social outcast or an unsuccessful bum.

most people regardless of religion are accountable to family/friends.

I would like to believe that everyone strives to do good works regardless of belief. Perhaps it is only a *requirement* for Christians which is one of the reason it makes the Christian life so miserable. You end up doing these good deeds for a selfish reason instead of just doing them because they are good to do.

this depends more on where/when you live imo. most Christians in america suffer the least out of any religious or ethnic group.

His point is, being a Christian is as easy as you want it to, so you saying that its not easy is somewhat inaccurate.

Yeah I get it, there are varying degrees of hypocritical Christians. I agree.