Many Christians claim that only if you believe in Jesus you will be able to enter heaven, but I think that if that's true then God would be an evil being. Let me explain to you why through this example.

Adam is a Christian and just started geting into discussions with nonbelievers on the internet. He comes across an atheist named Patrick. They discuss few subjects and Patrick convinces Adam to read a few books by atheist authors. Adam reads the first one and becomes automatically hooked. He reads another one and another one and another and decides that he will no longer be a Christian. He states that he no longer believes that Jesus was a son of God and that the Christian beliefs are true.

Now this is where I see problems with the idea that someone who believes in Jesus gets to heaven but if they don't then they are doomed. Some even claim that one can commit the most atrocious acts ever but if they are believers then they are forgiven by GOD also go to heaven. But if you don't believe then there is nothing that can save you.

So now, let's go back to my example above. It seems like LUCK plays a huge role on our ETERNAL FUTURE, do you think GOD would not realize that? Here are three versions of the events that could have happend and how would have affected ADAM and his eternal life.

1. Adam dies in a car crash just before he reads the books , so he dies as a believer. / He goes to heaven.
2. Adam reads the books becomes an atheist and next week dies in a car crash. / He goes to hell.
3. Adam reads the books becomes an atheist but after 10 years a new evidence comes up in regards to the existence of GOD. The evidence is so convincing that all the atheists become the believers. Adam again believes in Jesus. / He goes to heaven.

As we can see if Adam had a chance to live for another 10 years he would go back to being a believer and his whole afterlife would have been spent in heaven, but because he was at the wrong place and the wrong time he died as an atheist and now he is screwed.

Do you think that GOD is not aware of this problem? Some people change their beliefs within their life many times, what if you die at the moment of a wrong conviction? God surely would have to be aware of this problem.

I know some of you theists will be jumping in their seats now and think but hey! God knows the future and is aware if Adam would have changed his mind and become a believer then GOD would surely allow Adam to go to heaven. Ok so if God knows the future of each one of us, then WHY does he create those who he knows will never become believers and will fry in hell? Isn't that act in itself evil, creating someone for one purpose, eternal torture in hell?

"This is the best of all possible worlds: free choice and nobody going to hell are contradictory, and people have free choice obv."

"It doesn't make sense to question God. Supposing He exists and possesses the qualities we posit for Him, you have to assume we are living in the best of all possible worlds. Or: You have to assume He is doing what's good."

My questions:
Why not skip the big bang and go straight to creating an infinite number of extremely happy people (souls?) in heaven who praise you constantly?
Why do people nowadays have less evidence to base their belief that Christianity is true on than people around year 40 AD had?

Thoughts?

Yeah the whole "God wants people to worship him willingly" thing doesn't really work when the alternative is eternal torture (or annihilation). Seriously might as well just create a bunch of kissasses that would willingly do so. The "necessity" of creating all the other doomed souls just seems sick and twisted to me.

In the third instance Adam can't go to heaven because he didn't die.

But in all seriousness, why do you ask this question? Are you worried that others might think you damned? Do you fear you might actually be? What do you think happens?

My point is that he dies as a believer so he does go to heaven.

No , I'm not worried . What I am trying to prove is the absurdity of Christian doctrine, and there are others claim Christians repeat that make no sense at all, or basically cast God as an evil being who could have made things good and simple for everyone but he he did not do so causing for many unnecesary pain, suffering, eternal tortures in hell, etc.

Yeah this one is pretty ridiculous as well.. Bad things have to happen cause there is free will and you can't have free will without bad things, YET Christians at the same time say that Heaven is all good and there's no bad in it but you also have free will in there. That's a contradiction, either free will can or cannot exist without bad things happening. But it does not matter to them it makes them happy in their pants so they go for it.

There's more to "believing" than what you are crediting to these examples.
It's a matter of accepting Jesus as Lord and savior.... not merely believing he existed.
In the accepting of Jesus comes the willingness to obey the law and follow the Word as best as you possibly can (we can't follow the law exactly because we are sinners)

Committing a crime and then just saying "Oooops... my bad. Jesus is my Lord and savior" will not get you into heaven. Repentance for sins... continued strives toward following the Word... true acceptance ... these are the things that will get you to heaven.

After all... we are talking about God here.... thinking you could pull one over on Him by saying "Hey... I believed... lemme in. I know I continued to kill, lie, steal, cheat and doubt the Word... but I really believed...soooo lemme in".... can't imagine that would work.

Well there are people(Christians) on this forum that would disagree with you about the belief part. These people claim that what you do does not really affect your chances of going to hell, so even if you murdered someone but you still accept Jesus and believe in god you get a free pass, so you are free to argue that out with them. The thread was referring to people who make that claim not those who think that belief in itself is not enough to get you in.

I agree... there are. I can only give my interpretation from my denomination.

I would have to side with you (scary) then against those who really believe that you can do whatever you want and then pull out the get out of jail free "I believe" card and have God say "Come on Down! You are the next contestant on Who Gets Into Heaven"

Im gonna go through my whole life a devout atheist.. But on my deathbed, will say in my head.. im a believer...

Win/Win

Yea.... let me know how that turns out for you, hell boy.



lol

If one leads a fruitless life, then their faith is not genuine. James says 'faith apart from works is dead.' James 2:14-26

Jesus paid it all. And it wasn't free.

So according to you people can do ****ty things and as long as someone else pays for it like Jesus all is good? So what's the point of being good if JESUS already paid for those bad deeds others have done? Seems pretty silly that the religion that advocates being good to others would claim that on the other hand even if you do all bad stuff you will get into heaven cause someone else already paid for it.

It would be free to those who murder and still get into heaven. (free out of jail pass)

Protestant Christian Doctrine

And many others... Let's be honest, there are over 38,000 Christian denominations , I am not going to list which ones agree with that doctrine which don't so I decide to clump it together assuming that those Christians who actually follow and don't follow it will understand that I am generalizing Christianity due to the problem of listing all denominations who actually agree or disagree...

I think there is a significant distinction to be made from the Christianity of the Catholics compared to the Christianity of the other 38,000+ denominations. No Catholic would argue what you say is Christian doctrine, and they make up approximately half of the Christian population.

Again, I think you are being a bit picky, I think we all know which type of Christians are being addressed when I was addressing the "absurdity of Christian doctrine".

Fair enough.

This is a topic that I've discussed numerous times on RGT. Good works is a response to God's grace. Salvation isn't earned, because we all fall short of God's grace. If you'd like biblical references let me know.

As I've also explained before, and i think to you, faith without good works is a dead faith. James emphatically states this. If faith doesn't produce fruit, it is not genuine faith.

I get you , yet in the other thread this is what you've selected to the question "Who goes to heaven"..

If that's the case why would GOD reward "dead faith" with heaven?

Tell me how these do not work together. If faith is not genuine, then it's not faith ldo. Someone just saying "I believe in Jesus" doesn't mean it's true. You can't pinky promise God with your fingers crossed behind your back.

Is faith only genuine *after* you've proven your faith is genuine with works, or is it genuine immediately at some point right when you "believe"?

I'm pretty sure you know the answer to that, so why does your faith need to be shown as genuine by works following that instance that you have received salvation? Plenty of Christians have a strong and genuine faith in Jesus, but do not show that through their works. Why? Because even though they *know* what they should do, they don't because they are lazy/sinful. That doesn't mean their faith is not genuine, its just that they are weak.

Also, do you believe salvation can be lost? If not, then there is obviously a point, prior to "proving" your faith with works, that you have faith without works but have salvation. Given that, there is nothing you can do to lose salvation. You might be a terrible Christian, but you are still saved.

If you believe salvation *can* be lost, please explain why.

Guys it's not very hard: You accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior, and you are allowed to live as an immortal in heaven which is basically infinitely better than any amusement park you've ever been to.

Christianity is so popular because it's so easy. Simply a thought can secure you infinite happiness. That bargain is hard to compete with!