Not right away, but theoretically, if you could silence all talk about religion, then in a generation or two, people would believe in fewer fairy tales and the world would be a much more peaceful place.

If you mean a level by Penn, when he first started talking I kept waiting for the punch line. Since he didn't have one yet insisted he's still an atheist, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. But he only gets one shot.

He didn't change his mind.

He is totally contemptuous of all religion! Did you miss the part at the end where he makes it perfectly clear he thinks religious believers are harming the world?

This seems hypocritical to me, frankly.

I don't think he's totally contemptuous of all religion (assuming this isn't a complete level). I don't really know if he changed his mind or if he's just saying something different than what I would have expected - either way is fine with me. The point he makes in the video is that religion has a place at the table, which is more than Dawkins allows.

Here's another segment by him on the same event:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/yt-7JH...ft_of_a_bible/

I don't know if any of this is new for Penn but it is different from the run of the mill, mindless anti-religion bs we get from most atheists. His point about proseletysing is something I've said before, even on 2+2 I think, though I used an analogy of a lion in the next room rather than a truck. Someone should tell him though that Psalms is in the OT, not the NT.

Why?

All I'm telling them is to not bury their heads back in the sand and to go out and read as much as they can on forums other than ones with only Christians.

Just telling them to not feel like a bad person for having doubts, etc.

I'm not laughing at them for ever believing or even telling them if they don't follow through with discarding their old beliefs that they are dumb or anything.

You're on here every day basically trying to convince theists that they're wrong about their beliefs...how is what I'm doing any different?

I admit I could be missing something here but I look at it as leveling the playing field because getting advice from Christians on what to do when you're having serious doubts is going to lead to more guilt and a feeling of being a bad person if you don't keep on praying, etc.

But at what cost.

Taking away the freedom to practise religion isnt exactly what should be done.
If I wanted to follow Christianity , I could. Its just that I decided differently.

Being able to decide is quiet a good thing.

He doesn't say in that video that religion has a place at the table, either. He just says that many religious people are good people, and that proselytism is understandable given their beliefs.

You seem to be confusing respect for religious people with respect for religion, Penn has the former but he's never claimed to have the latter.

I'm not trying to convince anyone. Me trying to convince would look very different, I'd have to be diplomatic and focus 80% of my effort on expressing respect for the person in question, I'd much rather bicker.

Sure, and Christians have similar reasons for joining a site like 2+2 and sending PMs to people who seem "confused" and telling them to follow God. Do you support that action? Most of these Christian forums are created by and for Christians, they don't want atheists hanging around sending proselytic PMs. And if someone posts his confusion on a Christian forum, well, chances are he's wants his faith reinforced, not questioned.

He was talking about Borodog lol.

Has anyone reading this ever received such a PM? I'd like to hear about them.

I've never received a PM from a theist offering to try to save me. I guess they realize that I'm a lost cause.

You have never expressed any sort of "fence sitting" so that is not surprising.

Just like Butcho does not bother to pm me and try and convince me of anything.

I thought he might be but discussing Penn was more interesting - funny that Madnak can't even get this right.

Butcho you need a hobby IMO. Really, who does this?

You might not be making your posts with the mindset that you're going to convince a theist to stop believe, but you're definitely indirectly doing exactly that even it the intent isn't there.

Do I support free speech and being able to tell people your beliefs on a forum? Yes. Why wouldn't I? If someone is flooding another persons inbox day after day then I would have a problem with it. But one pm telling them how i feel, or one pm from others doing the same is fine with me.
If some random Christian sent me a pm trying to speak to me about the word of God, I would simply reply telling them 'thanks, but no thanks....and please don't pm me again." If they persisted I'd take the necessary action but a one-time shot is fine with me.

Of course they don't want atheists hanging around sending PM's...but so what? They also want us to teach their religion in our public schools.

As for the bolded part, yes perhaps you're right. But they also probably don't know anywhere else to post it. They might think doing a simple Google search for a different type of forum would cause God to strike down their Mom or something. I don't know. Point is I feel sorry for them, and I'm just trying to provide another side of the story that those in the religion don't want to be heard.

I has a hobby...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFHpEvGjVaA

First of all, I have yet to send one pm because I've been too lazy to get the necessary 15 posts under my belt to even be able to send a pm.

Second, people do it that feel sorry for those that have been brainwashed since an early age and are feeling bad about themselves for using their brains.

Again, it will just be a one-time pm to specific posters that make OP's of a very specific kind. I'd wager I'll be sending maybe two pm's a month. The ultimate goal is to make them feel okay for thinking outside of the box they've been put in.

Exactly.

Fair enough, I suppose.

I don't get it. I mean, I understand why you would want to tape yourself swinging, but why put it on youtube?

Is is so other people can comment on your form?

Also, golf is awesome. I am not really any good and work 60 weeks so I do not get to play that often, but I love playing when I can. Such a relaxing frustrating game.

Nice swing!

Sure Butcho, people do it, but not you. That's not your M.O. Not to be rude but you're a dick! If you are really trying to help someone then your approach sucks! Or is the intent to make someone feel so stupid that they start to think that since your ego is so big, you must be right about what you say? If that's it then I guess you're doing ok.

I have a few instructors that post here are helping me work on a few things.

It's like you get more and more dense every day.

Telling people it's okay to think and read different views is not intending to make them feel stupid.

Everyone replies telling them that Satan is trying to trick them. I tell them it's good to think critically about something as important as religion is to some, and to try and read as much as they can outside of a strictly Christian view.

In the one pm I wrote (but wasn't able to send) I even told the dude that the bible has a lot of good in it, and in many cases it can make people better.

Seriously, try to read better or something. I don't send a message like, "LOL dumb Christians...you need to be an atheist and here's why you big dummy!!!...blah blah blah."

No, it's just telling them it's okay to question, and to take the time to read opposing views to really find out if they have the faith needed to continue down their path as a Christian.

I never said it was. I was just pointing out that how you go about it comes across this way.

Butcho, from the very first conversation I had with you you have been nothing but disrespectful and have given the impression that religion is nothing but a joke. I didn't misread you, I read you perfectly.

It is a joke. A rather sick one at that.

I can't respect Christians that destroy vulnerable indigenous cultures throughout the world through missionary work. Or those that use their political power and messed up moral code to take away my personal freedoms. The rest are alright as long as they dont give support to their fellow Christians that do those things.