Agree that recent scholarship (well, I might pick at the term "recent," since this debate has been ongoing) has made Lincoln appear less stridently atheist than some thought. His beliefs appeared to fluctuate quite a bit. However, by the definition many of us use for atheism (which you would describe as the agnostic position, though I disagree with that definition), Lincoln's "seeking" having not led him to God would make him an atheist.

You realise this isn't a matter of opinion? The statistics exist.

Wikipedia says:

There's overlap between the definitions of "agnostic" and "atheist". I would rather be labeled an atheist because I am an atheist with regard to all the major religions on Earth. I don't assert that God doesn't exist, but I do assert that YOUR God doesn't exist.

I'm not an expert by any means, but my impression is that Lincoln was atheist or at least agnostic early in life, but turned Christian over the course of the civil war.

Uh, this is just wrong. The Enlightenment was nothing like atheistic.

This is contested. It's hard to tell where a politician stands on these things, I suppose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham...n_and_religion

Yeah I've read all the wiki stuff. It's far from clear. I think the clearest thing is that he was atheist or agnostic in early life. For instance:

That is worded extremely carefully to avoid identifying himself as Christian.

In later years things are less clear but my best judgement is that he was Christian.

this is being nitty, but I hate the title of this thread. If atheists were 51% of the US and growing, then it would be winning. title misrepresents

I agree and also want to mention that during these times renouncing belief in any theistic god was political and social suicide. Isn't it quite obvious that guys like Lincoln, Jefferson, Franklin, etc. would never mention such an idea but rather keep it to themselves.

It still holds true today. Sad really.

yes religion will be the like the pagan gods are to christians in about a century.

but not to worry there will be other reasons for the human race to divide itself and fight... race is probably gona be the next divider imo

unless we get some aliens to hate


no not illegal aliens you rednecks..

Keep an open mind. Question. Listen. There are answers. Man is more than just rational. He is more than simply carbon. Love is not rational. But it heals. And it is real. Be skeptical of him who tells you he has the only right answer. ism's are not healthy. They shrink our spirit. Keep what is good. Question the rest. Life is not black and white.

Atheism will probably get no more than a toehold in the U.S. along with a lot of other pagan customs rampant in the U.S. right now.

The U.S. is descended from the tribe of Manasseh which was part of another tribe the tribe of Ephraim (the British Empire).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribe_of_Manasseh

Both of them are through the House of Joseph who descended from Rachel who was Jacob's most loved second wife. He was duped into marrying Leah first by his father-in-law Laban.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribe_of_Manasseh

But I figure the U.S. will return back to God after its wanderings because there is an old King of Judah with the same name as the tribe's. The old King wandered greatly into evil was given over to an enemy for correction then the old King turned and repented. That has quite a prophetic ring to it even though it is just a parallel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Manasseh

crazy

Not crazy at all. God has seeded the world like his field and he manages the crop rotations.

http://stevenmcollins.com/EZEKIEL_38-39_article.pdf

yepppp

As usual you have to make a meaningless non sequitur instead of letting people read the links I provided above.

[ ] non sequitur
[ ] prevented people from reading the links you probably barely read yourself

If divine providence is managing world migrations that is big news!!!!!

But be a good little atheist lap dog and make sure nobody gets that info to check it out because you have the right to decide for everybody right?

My links are by someone trying to track divine providence at work and that is of HUGE IMPORTANCE if world history parallels the prophecies.

AGREE

I guess you didn't read it the first time, but I am pretty sure that I am unable to prevent people from clicking the links you provided. The main obstacle you face is not me magically preventing people from reading what you write (BTW I am referring to the magic you don't believe in, not the magic you do believe in). The main obstacle is that every post of yours is a big batch of crazy.

Yeah but it doesn't, so we can all chill out.

You haven't even had the time to read it lapdog. I barely posted it and you posted because you think this is your personal chat board (you could go to a chat room you know) and it takes a lot of time to read 30 pages on prophecy as they relate to world and possible future event scenarios.

My bad, I sometimes forget that you take yourself seriously. Here is something you said:

"The U.S. is descended from the tribe of Manasseh"

Here is something the Wiki you linked to said:

"As part of the Kingdom of Israel, the territory of Menasheh was conquered by the Assyrians, and the tribe exiled; the manner of their exile lead to their further history being lost. However, several modern day groups claim descent, with varying levels of academic and rabbinical support. The Samaritans claims that some of their adherents are descended from this tribe. Further afield, in northeast India, the Kuki-Chin-Mizo Jews claim descent from Menasheh, and call themselves Bnei Menashe; in 2005 Shlomo Amar, Sephardi Chief Rabbi of Israel, announced that he regarded this claim to be true, which under the controversial Law of Return allows them to migrate to Israel, as long as they formally convert to Israel's official form of Judaism."

So if you were linking to the Wiki to support your point, I don't really get it. If you were linking to the Wiki because you are a linktard, then it makes perfect sense.

So after making that up, you said:

"But I figure the U.S. will return back to God after its wanderings because there is an old King of Judah with the same name as the tribe's."

Makes perfect sense. I mean, I'd argue with you, but since you are speculating ridiculous BS, I don't see the point.

I linked the wiki so people can see that the U.S. was at one time a part of Britain as British colonies.

That is not that hard or crazy an analogy for people to draw unless they have decided to categorically dismiss something out of hand because they THINK skepticism dictates it.

But if God is managing the world then the best place to see it is in trends. Migrations show trends. Sometimes the trends of people that migrated to the U.S. were even similar to the Israelites exodus from Egypt.

People came to the U.S. originally because of religious persecution or for slavery related reasons. I bet a lot of African Americans relate to the bible because they can see the Israelites in slavery and coming out of it and that is exactly what they did.

A lot of Americans were in 7 year indentured servant status which is a type of slavery. Usually it lasted 7 years which is similar to the biblical standard for slavery before they earned their freedom.

We even had a penal colony: Georgia. Sinners are like convicts. In Gods eyes we are all convicts until we acknowledge and obey him.

Even Australia started out as a British penal colony.

God often reduces people to barebones because people will not even acknowledge him until the going gets rough. He warns us about usury also but we continue to try to drag interest out of people which ultimately gets both the borrower and the lender in trouble. A lot of convicts in earlier times were convicts because of poverty, debt and usury but God even tells us to be kind to those in prison. Since a lot of migrants are coming out of or going into prison I find it miraculous of God to state in the bible to be kind to prisoners like he is managing their transition period so it will not be so onerous. Its people that decide to get ugly and make it onerous. Not God.

Splendour,

Serious question. Has anyone ever advised you that you are schizophrenic?

Well if you look at the link you will see Manasseh is a linked tribe to Ephraim. Almost a tribe split off. I didn't say that well in the previous post.

Don't insult me because you're biblically illiterate and can't conceive of a God working in this world.

You have to spend a lot of time thinking about biblical connections to understand the smallest thing about prophecies and how they relate to the world.

Some people will only turn to be saved when they are broken because they haven't been raised correctly or have the love of God in their hearts. So if God manages the world in such a way that more people are ultimately saved then that is a merciful God whether or not you like the methods.

God's 3D not the presto chango magician puppet you atheists want.

Maybe you'll get lucky and he'll correct you.