Like I said, almost anything you are teaching them, telling them, whatever, is a belief.

Heres a few

Stealing is wrong
It is not desirable to be socially outcast
It is not desirable to incur a custodial sentence.
It is important to do your homework.

and so on. I will ask a question for the third time, that you seem to have missed the first two times

You tell your kids to do their homework. They ask you why. You tell them all about how its important for later life, learning is good, doing well in school is important and so on. They then say "I dont believe you" or " I dont believe in all that". Do you then go "Ok, thats fine, go and play your XBox or whatever you want to do instead" ?

I am guessing you dont. I would guess( although I dont know what kind of parent you are) that there will be sanctions for not doing their homework ( loss of pocket money, grounding, I dunno)

If you mean by that , the following answer

Then as I already pointed out, these can all be applied to the beliefs that you yourself are teaching your children, unwittingly or otherwise.

Then I'd suggest your daughter to lie and say she believes. She doesn't have to go out of her way to prove she believes, simply not talking about it or answering "yes, I believe" should be enough. It doesn't help her that her older brother openly displays his lack of belief, but she can always pretend she's the "good one" in the family (in other people's eyes).

You didn't respond to this "FYP" earlier, in which you gave similar advice:

Cat's out of the bag. And maintaining a lie that big over many years and sleepovers would be difficult. She's going to scrutinize every comment in social studies to make sure there's no hint within? I'm glad she's not hiding, but it does bring challenges.

Actually I think this is full of assumptions. I'm pretty sure I've never told my kids that it's 'wrong' to steal, I've only ever said 'don't do it'. I've explained the possible consequences but if they turn out not to be deterrents then I won't be able to stop my kids from stealing. You're equating 'don't steal' with some moral imperative or belief value perhaps, one that I'm certainly not attaching to it. If I was a citizen in several countries I can think of I'd probably be helping my kids steal.

So calling 'don't steal' a belief is an error IMO. It doesn't counter my position on beliefs, which is not to say that something else might, I'm still in doubt about the nature of belief as I mentioned earlier.

Again, you're making assumptions, I've never told my kids that it's 'important' to do their homework, I've just told them to do it because we'll end up getting hassled by the school if they don't. I don't actually have an opinion on how important homework is or not. I've amde it clear though that if they want good jobs, they'll need education but that's not a belief is it? Surely that's just a factual summary of the situation they're growing up in.

No, I meant everything I've said ITT so far and as I've shown, I'm not (in the examples you've provided) actually passing on any beliefs anyway.

The power of religion.... this is another way they perpetuate and sustain themselves, through peer pressure and social pressures, it affects adults just as much as children, more so if anything.

I'm glad the cat's out of the bag already.

In which case, you would be passing on the belief "Its ok to steal in this case"

when I said "wrong" I wasnt meaning in the absolute sense, of a god decreeing its wrong to steal. I meant, in the sense that there are negative consequences to the action

So you saying "dont do it" is passing on the belief.

If its not a belief, what is it? You say, "Dont steal", they say "why", then you give a whole load of beliefs about why you shouldnt steal.



I know that homework was an assumption, but take something else, cleaning rooms, going to bed at a reasonable time, whatever it is.
And your post is full of beliefs. The belief its bad to be hassled by the school if they dont do their homework, the belief that a good job is important, the belief that education leads to a good job , and so on.


Lol, yes you are. You havent shown anything. But since you cant see it, I guess I will leave it there.

Which is where this debate regularly grinds to a halt. What is a 'belief', what differentiates saying 'don't steal' from 'there IS a god', what constitutes 'truth' and is there nothing that a parent doesn't have the right to teach their kids?

Dereds would say that it depends on what is being taught but that's very individually subjective and I don't think we can decide that way.

with regard to bolded, I am not making a comment as to what you have a right to teach your kids. What I am saying is, you are passing on your beliefs in the same way that a theist is passing on theirs. The only reason you dont mind passing on your beliefs is because you think they are correct (obviously). But so does the theist think his beliefs are correct.

At first, your argument seemed to be, they are passing on their beliefs, and this is bad. I am pointing out that you are doing the same. If you want to narrow it down to , some beliefs are ok to pass on, some arent ( as dereds suggested earlier) then fine, but you need to provide justification other than what you gave me, ( that they're a breach of trust, mild child abuse and a form of indoctrination), because all these can be applied to almost any belief you are teaching your children.


I am guessing it comes down to "their beliefs are false", but you just dont want to admit that ( which is understandable)

Do you accept that there are objective moral standards?

"No ten year old kid deserves to have their skull smashed open on concrete, no matter how much a of bullying little toerag they were being. How can anyone think that they do?"

Still would like to know if this is a subjective or objective moral view and if its something you will teach your kids or let them decide for themslefs. If they did this to someone would you say the above to them? Because you seem pretty adamant here and if you communicate this to them in the same manner i dont no how your house of cards doesn't fall. But i guess im getting ignored...oh well.

MOVE!!!!

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This is the same question I have asked 3 times now, and still not had an answer........

At least he talks to you.

I consider myself about as liberal as you can get, but I just can't muster up sympathy for people who bring stuff on themselves. 10 or 90. Live and learn. Hopefully, getting one's skull smashed open is an occasion for learning. Our ancestral history is probably full of kids who played with a poisonous snake and died. Those who survived (or observed) probably didn't do it again. It's the way of of life for all earth's creatures. Thin the herd and all that. Pretty sure I hold a very unpopular view though.

Idk. Im not in the camp where violence doesn't solve anything but id rather see him learn his lesson with a bloody nose then a broke neck, you can only turn the other cheek and mediate for so long. Id still feel sympathy though if for no other reason then most bullies are and or were bullied themslefs.

They could be wrong. I could be wrong. If I object to them urging religion on their children when they could be wrong then I'd be a hypocrite to urge atheism on my children. I feel that way because I class what we'd be passing on as a 'belief' and I think it's wrong to urge beliefs on children.

This has all got hung up on the word 'belief' and that's what always happens. I'd really like it if we could make some progress there but I'm not sure I even know what the issues are or how to address them. From what little I know about how philosophy treats the concept of 'truth', I'm quite certain there are levels here that we're not working on.

Honestly, I don't know. If pushed on it I would say that I don't but I can't justify that right now. I need to look into it in more detail.

I don't understand how I'm apparently missing questions. I'm always happy to answer anything. Maybe I just didn't see it as a relevant point. You'll forgive me for not wanting to reread the whole thread trying to figure out where I was asked the question...

I don't this consider video a moral issue at all. It's simply a question of the appropriate level of response and smashing someone's skull is inappropriate in every situation except life or death and I'm stunned that adults all over the world have been hooraying this kid for almost doing it to the bully literally half his size. He could have just sat on him, imagine how humiliating that would have been for the bully, but non-fatal.

Is that a belief? Is there anything that isn't a belief?

Which is where we differ. If you don't think there are objective moral standards how can it be immoral to teach your kids there is or isn't a God?

I think you are still missing the point here

You: its wrong to force your beliefs on an innocent child
me: But you are forcing your beliefs on an innocent child.


Do you disagree that you are forcing any beliefs on your children? Not even 1?

If you can find even 1 belief, then you need to alter your initial statement of

Its wrong to force your beliefs on an innocent child.

to

Its wrong to force certain beliefs on an innocent child.


and my question would then be, what is it about those beliefs that make them different from other beliefs? The answers you gave me to this before ( breach of trust etc) can apply equally to any belief.




My question was

Think of some X that you ask your children to do ( or ask them not to do ). My example was homework, but you didnt seem to like that example, so think of your own. It could be homework, tidying room, not slamming another childs head against the concrete, whatever.

Say you ask your child to do X. They ask "why". You explain to them your reasoning. They then say "I dont agree with that" or "I dont believe that". Do you then go, "Oh, ok then, thats fine, go and play your xbox/whatever you want to do instead"

Of course you may do this, but going on what I know about most people and most parents, you probably dont. You may even impose sanctions of some kind.

My point is that, if you follow your reasons down, at some point you will reach a belief, which is the belief that you are teaching/indoctrinating/whatever your child.





Whats your definition of a belief?

If there's no objective moral imperative, no fixed set of morals that I can refer to for guidance, then I have to view this from another perspective and use some other value system and what I've chosen is whether or not the information being passed to the child is a metaphysical belief, or something else such as simple facts or social skills. A lot of what people have been arguing are beliefs I would class as something else so it seems to me that this can't progress until that issue is resolved and it never is.

Hmmmm, good point, I should probably not use the word 'immoral'.

No, really, I get that.

I'm not sure because we can't seem to agree what is and what isn't a belief. If it turns out that I do pass on beliefs to my kids then I'll have to find another word to describe passing on a religion. I'm reluctant to let go of the word belief at this point though.

Well this is the crux of the issue and I've actually asked you a question (indirectly) about this that you haven't answered when I said "what differentiates saying 'don't steal' from 'there IS a god',". Do you consider them to be the same?



An acceptance of something as true, a firmly held opinion, a confidence or conviction in something? Belief seem to come down to personal preference and that distinguishes them from facts IMO. The earth is round is not a belief, or do you think that it is?

If you could show that I'm passing a value to my kids based purely on what I personally prefer, as opposed to the many other motivations, then I would have to address that. I'm not suggesting that you need to do that, simply pointing out that I'd agree with you should that be proven to be the case. In you example above, if I say do X and they don't, I would enforce my authority simply because without it I lose control and I don't want to live in a house with three out of control kids. Again, it's a pragmatic viewpoint, not based in beliefs about childhood behaviour or morals.

In an absolute sense, yes, I consider them the same. And if I dont, then that indicates my beliefs.



Its a personal preference to not want to live in a house with 3 out of control kids. Its a personal preference to not want your children to be taught christianity. and so on.
You appear to accept things as true, have firmly held opinions, and confidence or conviction in things. Are you saying that you are passing none of these on to your children?




This indicates the beliefs that "children should be under control". "children shouldnt be able to do what they want" "children should do what I say" "my comfort is more important than letting kids run riot" "I am in charge" "chaos is bad" "order is good" "Order is needed to be able to function" and so on. Do you think your children believe these?

You are passing on the value " A quiet orderly life, and obedience to authority, is more important than spontaneity, creativity, and chaos"

You are passing on the value "Adults are orderly, quiet, and require children to be the same. Adults do not run, shout, or play( except maybe in certain allowed circumstances, eg sport)"


I also find it hard to believe that the only reason you enforce your authority is because you want a quiet life.

Do you agree with the statement "Its important/good/useful to be successful in life"?

Are you ever disappointed in your children? In their behaviour? Do you aim high for them? Do you encourage them to do various activities? Do you discourage them from doing other activities?

"children are too young to decide things for themself". Is that a belief?

So the nature of those beliefs is what you'd consider when analysing what parents want their children to believe?


I have no problem with my children being taught about Christianity, I don't want anyone telling them that it's the 'truth'. There's a huge difference.

Not intentionally.

Why?

It's not meaningful the way you've phrased it. Life is much more complex than that and there are many forms of 'success', I don't actually know what you mean by it

Yes of course and it's a good question, why do I have expectations and what are they based on? How does my desire that my children be happy compare to someone telling them that Allah is the one true god? Are they the same?

Phrased like that it's inaccurate. Children are perfectly capable of making a decision. What they're often not capable of doing is understanding complex issues like religion (many adults aren't) and so they're not making an informed, considered, intellectual decision, they're simply being urged into making a decision that suits the adults doing the urging. That's where I start to consider it a form of abuse, a breach of the trust that children have in us to look out for their best interests.

This doesn't mean that there aren't occasion when adults know better than children what is good for them, but I don't consider forcing children to believe what you believe on the subject of religion to be one of those occasions in the same way that encouraging them to eat vegetables because they need the minerals and vitamins to grow and survive IS one of those occasions. Again, is that a belief, or a simple fact? I think there's a biological imperative at work there.

As far as I can see, its impossible for parents not to pass on beliefs to their children. Beliefs are how humans operate in the world. I am not passing any judgement on whether passing on beliefs is a good or bad thing. It is going to happen whatever you do. Even if you never pass on any beliefs, you are going to pass on the belief that passing on beliefs is not desirable!!




Because everything you say indicates otherwise



Define success however you want to



Then you are passing on beliefs and judgements about their behaviour.




This sounds very similar to you urging them to behave because it suits you for them to behave.


It may be that the need for minerals and vitamins to grow and survive is a fact. But underpinning your actions are the beliefs that "I must do the best for my children" "It is better for children to grow up healthy than to grow up unhealthy" and, as someone else pointed out earlier "Existence is important, its better to exist than not exist", "survival is important"


I am not denying that some beliefs are useful for operating in the world.
But that in itself is a belief, that being able to operate in the world is a desirable outcome.

Presumably you'd have no problem if I taught my children that 2+2=4, but if I urged them to believe something unsavoury (I'm sure I don't need to provide examples), would you have a problem with that? If so, on what grounds then would you object to something a parent was making their child believe

Is needing a quiet life the same as believing that's preferable for me? I have a wired set of responses to stimuli that I have some control over but not much and I know that unruly kids means lots of stress. Stress is bad for me, fact, so avoiding it isn't a belief, it's easier. If it was shown that letting kids be unruly was actually the best way to raise them I'd still maintain control for the sake of an easy life.

An animal doesn't run from a fire because it believes it will get burnt if it doesn't, it simply obeys it's survival instincts, unless you think animals have the ability to reason and process metaphysical concepts?

You introduced it, why don't you describe where you were going with it.

Judgements yes, I couldn't have an opinion without having first made a judgement, but beliefs? Not so sure. I'm disappointed when my kids don't try their hardest and I bet there's a biological imperative at work there too. Laziness is less likely to result in survival so we reject it, it's not optimal or desirable, but that has nothing to do with beliefs.

Yes it suits me in that I suffer less stress, our belongings don't get broken, we get some down time when they go to bed etc etc. At no point is this comparable to assuring children with great certainty that Allah is in fact the only true god and that they should worship him and everyone else is simply wrong.

As I said, I think there's a biological imperative at work. I have a compulsion to ensure the survival of my children, I'm simply obeying my genes and it's not a 'belief' that might change with new information or a change in perspective, it will always be true regardless of how I feel about it. I don't think that's at all comparable to assuring them that I know the truth about god and anyone who disagrees is wrong.

Do you?

I don't agree. I could teach my kids that I'm not sure that shooting themselves in the head would kill them and then leave them to make their own minds up, maybe even experiment a bit. Or I could tell them not to do it. Is that really being victim to beliefs? Beliefs can be wrong, I think that might be the criteria we should focus on. What is the scope of that 'wrong' i.e. how reasonable is it to be certain of your belief and to pass it on, and what are the effects of that?