So I've been seeing alot of the following strategy from my opponents at the mid-stakes, and I'd like to get some input from you guys on the best way to combat it.

I have my own thoughts, but I'll save them for later as I don't want to influence anyone.

Their strategy is the following:

1. Float the flop out of position alot, folding to cbet only in the range of say 8-15%.

2. Wait till the turn to check-raise with alot of hands...good middle pair, top pair and better, and draws plus any draws that they have picked-up after floating the flop....and sometimes air. Their turn check raise percentage is usually in the range of 30-50%.

3. Stab the river almost 100% of the time if the turn is checked. The only time they don't is when they have a very weak showdown hand like bad A highs and K high.

I'd just like to hear some thoughts about the best solution to this strategy, cause it's been a recurring theme lately.

Good post, I have problems against this kind of guys too.

I've seen they like to bet the river with A-hi / K-hi often even on a 4-cards straight board. (at least on my experience)

Check back ace/king high/bottom pair and snap call river when they stab is the obvious adjustment. Continue to bet top pair strong middle pair type hands on the turn.

Now, if they fold the turn a fairly high percentage of the time, then you should probably bluff your nonshowdownable hands quite a bit even though they are going to check raise you higher than usual. But these guys get sort of tricky when they check raise like 50% of turns and are extremely obstinate. You just have to make pairs against them I think and let them spew. When the turn checkraise percentage gets too high, then you need to start betting bottom pair and possibly even ace high again to get the most value from their bluffy play. But if they are just CR mostly strong hands and decent draws on the turn then you should probably be checking back a lot of bottom pair type hands.

Yes this is my general strategy, but it just seems like I'm polarizing my turn betting range so much. I mean, I'm going to have air alot more than I'm going to have a hand that I want to put two bets in with, and the check raise is going to make me lay down a huge percentage of the time.

Well sure, you definitely have to check back a lot of your worst hands as well. Otherwise you are going to get owned.

One thing I have done against the type of player that always stabs the river on my turn checks is check the turn with top pair a couple times (NOT ALWAYS) then raise them when they stab and they will back off usually from what I have seen. Don't know if that is correct but it works for me especially if you have them noted for this. Do this a couple times early in the match and see how they react. Sometimes I will check behind flops a lot strongish just to induce them to fire. Might be terrible advice but I have a slight buzz and thats what came to mind

This strategy is terrible IMO!

Polarise your turn bet range to just your best hands and bluffs. Check through weaker value bets like bottom pair, that way their loose turn c/r's run into your big hands and own themselves.

The nice thing about them waiting to the turn oop is that you get almost complete control over what size the final pot is going to be, if you want to get to showdown cheap all you do it bet the flop and call the river.

Well at least I said it may be terrible LOOOOOOOOOOLZ

this is almost the exact way loose passive donks used to play

when I play guys like these I cbet the flop 100% and then check back the turn like it's my job.

And I make a little mark on a pad for every time I save 1.5BB's with my weak SDable hands. And also a little mark every time they bluff hands that would have folded to my turn bet.

Add these up after your session, divide by the number of hands, multiply by 100 and voila! You have your edge.

i was going to start a new thread about how to handle this type of player, but i was scrolling through and found this one, and it is exactly what i was looking for. i know i'm a couple months late, but i still have a question concerning this.

i am wondering how exactly you handle hands like 86o, 75o, 94s, etc - the weaker range of hands that you should be playing, but that have little value unless you make a hand against the looser of these loose-passive players. i'm talking about the opponent that will just call preflop with even their strongest hands, will call almost every flop, and then will call most turns and rivers with any kind of a showdown hand or draw while making fairly reasonable turn c/r's with their stronger made hands.

i find myself getting stuck on the turn and river in these situations when i miss - i feel i have no choice but to bet the turn and often the river if draws miss and i end up giving their ace/king high or bottom/mid pair value on the turn and river. the other trap i find myself in is to bet the flop and check the turn, but as nate said, this player that has called the flop with anything will always bet the river and end up stealing the pot.

(if this specific type of player is capable of adjusting his play, i actually like china's idea of once or twice checking back a strong hand, (but obviously not an absolute monster), and raising them on the river.)

one option i have explored is checking back the flop when i miss since there is just no flop fold equity, but then this type of player will often lead the turn if i check back and steal the pot (although it's a smaller pot they steal). obviously i can check back the flop with showdown hands as well and get turn and river value from their bluffs as opposed to just the flop bet/river call value, but nonetheless they win these pots when i have nothing.

another option i have explored is to limp preflop with these hands. this seems like a forsaken thing to do based on what i've read/heard, but a lot of times players will just check down/give up pots you limp since there is less to steal. and even if they do play in the same passive-aggressive manner postflop, they are stealing an even smaller amount. there is also the possibility that they will raise preflop and/or lead out every street postflop regardless of what they have, which is certainly something you can exploit. i guess i'm wondering what regs think of this strategy. i honestly don't know if it is justified enough to employ. should you just raise these hands and concede them postflop if you miss?

first post, sorry it's so long - i tend to be long-winded. this is a great site, btw.

Um, to me, it seems like ABC Tag play in position would pretty much crush this, specifically if you're willing to barrel IP on good board textures.

Just look at the %'s

Only folding the flop 15%
C/R'ing turn 30-50%
Stabbing 100%

Well, a lot of TAGs are barreling crap they want to fold, betting the turn when they want more moneys in the pot and checking to induce on the river

Doesn't that win? You lose if you tilt because they flop top pair a ton but jeeze you lose vs. that every time

Am I missing something?

Wolfram,

I don't know if they're implying that the turn get's c/r'd 50% and the rest of the time they fold but clearly you're betting pure bluffs if they are c/r'ing only 50% no?

Standard tag play would win, but checking the turn with more weak showdownable hands than you usually would is better because their turn range is much stronger than most players when they c/c the flop and check the turn. So you should also check back the turn with more nonshowdownable hands as well. Probably with hands that have decent equity against his checkraising range but can't really call a checkraise. So maybe 56 on a 79A board or something, which I would almost certainly bet against a more normal player.

I'm a little new to HU but doesn't checking back too many weak but showdownable hands sort of play into his hands. Why not bet and let him bluff check raise? If he's check raising near 50% of his hands it seems we should be giving him some rope to make a spew bluff rather than handing out free cards.

Nice thread.

So when we check a lot of non showdown hands IP and he is stabbing 100% we have to give up way to many hands unless we bluffraise the river right? Or wouldn't it matter to give up after 3*bblind invested?