So I haven't been doing much limp-calling preflop, but today I decided to give it a go. I'm not sure if this was the right spot or anything, but it seemed like it.

I'm putting results out in the open here as I'm assuming no one's gonna go all results-oriented or anything.

Full Tilt Poker $5/$10 Limit Hold'em - 2 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

So, a guy, or a girl who knows, sits in with 10BB and I'm pretty much assuming that they're 3-betting the first hand. (Maybe I should start limping the first hand or something.)

Hand #1
Pre Flop: Hero is BTN/SB with 3 J
Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero calls

Flop: (6 SB) T 7 J (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls

Turn: (4 BB) 8 (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls

River: (6 BB) Q (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls

Hero shows 3d Jh (a pair of Jacks)
BB shows 2s 6d (Queen Jack high)

I was thinking of raising the turn, but then again it's fine to induce bluffs as these first-hand-3-bettors like to always three barrel too. Also the turn card wasn't the greatest to be raising on.


Hand #2
Pre Flop: Hero is BB with 5 2
BTN/SB raises, 1 fold

Hand #3
Pre Flop: Hero is BTN/SB with 7 8
Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero calls

Flop: (6 SB) Q K 9 (2 players)
BB bets, Hero folds

OK so with the first hand showing down and 3-betting the 2nd hand too, I'm getting the feeling that this guy somewhat aggressive. Given the hand he showed down, I guess bluffing him off this pot isn't a terrible idea, I'd want to have just a bit more to go about doing it.

Hand #4
Pre Flop: Hero is BB with 9 J
BTN/SB raises, Hero calls

Flop: (4 SB) 5 9 Q (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB bets, Hero calls

Turn: (3 BB) T (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB checks

River: (3 BB) T (2 players)
Hero bets, BTN/SB calls

Hero shows 9h Js (two pair, Tens and Nines)
BTN/SB mucks As 8h

Value-raising and getting excessive action from air might be a better option, but inducing just regular bluffs cannot that bad and seeing some showdowns would be great too. Here the opponent shows the capability of checking with a showdownable hand.

Hand #5
Pre Flop: Hero is BTN/SB with K 7
Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero calls

Flop: (6 SB) A 9 6 (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls

Turn: (4 BB) 7 (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls

River: (6 BB) 5 (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls

Hero mucks Kh 7c
BB shows 9d 8h (a straight, Nine high)

The board comes awful, but I'm not folding pairs agains this player that's for sure.

Hand #6
Pre Flop: Hero is BB with 4 2
BTN/SB raises, 1 fold

Hand #7
Pre Flop: Hero is BTN/SB with 3 3
Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero calls

Flop: (6 SB) A 7 5 (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls

Turn: (4 BB) 6 (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls

River: (6 BB) 9 (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls

Hero mucks 3d 3s
BB shows Kd 5d (a pair of Fives)

Even worse board which might have been a spot to give up as it sucks to get value-owned by, say, K5o, but life sucks sometimes.

Hand #8
Pre Flop: Hero is BB with 5 6
BTN/SB raises, Hero calls

Flop: (4 SB) A 8 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB bets, Hero calls

Turn: (3 BB) 4 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB checks

River: (3 BB) 2 (2 players)
Hero bets, BTN/SB folds

OK, so the guy isn't a complete maniac.

Hand #9
Pre Flop: Hero is BTN/SB with 7 5
Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero calls

Flop: (6 SB) J 8 5 (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls

Turn: (4 BB) K (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls

River: (6 BB) 5 (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero calls

Hero mucks 7c 5s
BB shows Jh 6h (a flush, King high)

Nothing too exciting happening here. Just that he's 3-betting every hand.

Hand #10
Pre Flop: Hero is BB with 8 5
BTN/SB raises, Hero calls

Flop: (4 SB) 2 A T (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB bets, Hero folds

OK, so I start limping. I'm expecting him to be raising every limp. I know that there are other ways to counter hyper-aggressive 3-betting, namely re-bluffing, but I wanted to try this out.

Hand #11
Pre Flop: Hero is BTN/SB with 7 K
Hero calls, BB raises, Hero calls

Flop: (4 SB) 4 A A (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls

Turn: (3 BB) 7 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB folds

Great flop, but I'm not sure about the turn bet. Certainly my hand is top-notch and should get called down by Queen high, but what do I know.

Hand #12
Pre Flop: Hero is BB with 9 5
BTN/SB raises, Hero calls

Flop: (4 SB) A 2 K (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB bets, Hero folds

Yeah, yeah, I know, I should be testing how he reacts to bluffing these boards.


Hand #13
Pre Flop: Hero is BTN/SB with 5 3
Hero calls, BB raises, Hero calls

Flop: (4 SB) 7 4 5 (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls

Turn: (4 BB) Q (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB folds

It seems he's willing to give up against aggression.

Hand #14
Pre Flop: Hero is BB with K 6
BTN/SB raises, Hero calls

Flop: (4 SB) 2 J 7 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB bets, Hero calls

Turn: (3 BB) K (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB bets, Hero raises, BTN/SB calls

River: (7 BB) T (2 players)
Hero bets, BTN/SB raises, Hero calls

Hero shows Kc 6d (a pair of Kings)
BTN/SB shows 9s Ad (Ace King high)

I think he likes raising. No way in hell I'm betting a worse hand on the river and folding to raise than A9o.

Hand #15
Pre Flop: Hero is BTN/SB with 3 J
Hero calls, BB raises, Hero calls

Flop: (4 SB) 6 T 6 (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls

Turn: (3 BB) 9 (2 players)
BB bets, Hero folds

Hand #16
Pre Flop: Hero is BB with J 5
BTN/SB raises, Hero calls

Flop: (4 SB) 4 K 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB bets, Hero calls

Turn: (3 BB) A (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB bets, Hero calls

River: (5 BB) 7 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB checks

Hero shows Js 5h (a pair of Fives)
BTN/SB shows 6s 4s (a pair of Fours)

Nothing particularly striking here. Just another note that he's capable of stopping to bet with hands that have marginal showdown value.

Hand #17
Pre Flop: Hero is BTN/SB with 9 7
Hero calls, BB checks

Flop: (2 SB) A 4 Q (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB folds

Interesting.

Hand #18
Pre Flop: Hero is BB with T J
BTN/SB raises, Hero calls

Flop: (4 SB) 9 A 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB bets, Hero calls

Turn: (3 BB) 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB checks

River: (3 BB) 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB checks

Hero mucks Tc Jc
BTN/SB shows Kc 4h (Ace King high)

Hand #19
Pre Flop: Hero is BTN/SB with T 8
Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero calls

Flop: (6 SB) 5 5 8 (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls

Turn: (5 BB) A (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls

River: (7 BB) 7 (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls

Hero shows Th 8s (two pair, Eights and Fives)
BB shows 6d Kc (a pair of Fives)

I was debating with myself whether to raising preflop again because he did seem to be capable of folding too and did it for this hand. Turn isn't the greatest card, but easy call-down anyhow.

Hand #20
Pre Flop: Hero is BB with 7 4
BTN/SB raises, Hero calls

Flop: (4 SB) 8 J 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB bets, Hero raises, BTN/SB 3-bets, Hero calls

Turn: (5 BB) A (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB checks

River: (5 BB) T (2 players)
Hero bets, BTN/SB raises, Hero folds

This hand got a bit strange.

Hand #21
Pre Flop: Hero is BTN/SB with 7 2
1 fold


Hand #22
Pre Flop: Hero is BB with K 3
BTN/SB raises, Hero calls

Flop: (4 SB) 9 3 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB bets, Hero calls

Turn: (3 BB) J (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB bets, Hero calls

River: (5 BB) T (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB bets, Hero calls

Hero mucks Ks 3d
BTN/SB shows Ad Jd (a pair of Jacks)

Not the greatest board development.

Hand #23
Pre Flop: Hero is BTN/SB with 3 2
1 fold

Hand #24
Pre Flop: Hero is BB with 3 J
BTN/SB raises, Hero calls

Flop: (4 SB) T T Q (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB bets, Hero calls

Turn: (3 BB) 7 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB checks

River: (3 BB) 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB bets, Hero folds


Hand #25
Pre Flop: Hero is BTN/SB with 8 T
Hero calls, BB checks

Flop: (2 SB) 3 5 6 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls

Turn: (3 BB) T (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls

River: (5 BB) 4 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls

Hero shows 8h Ts (a pair of Tens)
BB mucks 5h 8d

Bit close on the call to the flop raise, but I guess it's OK. Amazing that he decides to check a T on the turn.

Hand #26
Pre Flop: Hero is BB with 4 2
BTN/SB raises, 1 fold

Hand #27
Pre Flop: Hero is BTN/SB with A A
Hero calls, BB raises, Hero 3-bets, BB caps!, Hero calls

Flop: (8 SB) Q 6 3 (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls

Turn: (5 BB) 2 (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls

River: (9 BB) J (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls

Hero shows As Ad (a pair of Aces)
BB shows Jh Kh (a pair of Jacks)

Here the action gets a bit wacky too. Bad river card suit to get more action.

Hand #28
Pre Flop: Hero is BB with Q T
BTN/SB raises, Hero calls

Flop: (4 SB) 8 J 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB bets, Hero calls

Turn: (3 BB) 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB checks

River: (3 BB) 4 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB bets, Hero calls

Hero mucks Qs Td
BTN/SB shows Ah 7h (a flush, Ace high)

I decide to turn this hand into a bluff-catcher on the flop. Additional perk being that I have a lot of outs too.

Hand #29
Pre Flop: Hero is BTN/SB with T J
Hero calls, BB raises, Hero calls

Flop: (4 SB) 5 K 9 (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls

Turn: (4 BB) 8 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls

River: (6 BB) 4 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

Hero shows Td Jh (King Jack high)
BB shows 5s 7c (a pair of Fives)

Some bluffing too. I check on the river partly to give up and partly because sometimes I do have the best hand here.

Hand #30
Pre Flop: Hero is BB with 9 Q
BTN/SB raises, Hero 3-bets, BTN/SB calls

Flop: (6 SB) Q J 5 (2 players)
Hero bets, BTN/SB raises, Hero calls

Turn: (5 BB) J (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB bets, Hero calls

River: (7 BB) 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB bets, Hero calls

Hero shows 9h Qh (two pair, Queens and Jacks)
BTN/SB shows 8d Qd (two pair, Queens and Jacks)

Anything else than J I'm check/raising the turn on.

Hand #31

Pre Flop: Hero is BTN/SB with 8 4
Hero calls, BB raises, Hero calls

Flop: (4 SB) 2 A A (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls

Turn: (3 BB) 5 (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls

River: (7 BB) J (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB folds

A brave bluff that amazingly and surprisingly worked.


Hand #32
Pre Flop: Hero is BB with 3 J
BTN/SB raises, Hero calls

Flop: (4 SB) 4 A 7 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB bets, Hero folds

Hand #33
Pre Flop: Hero is BTN/SB with 9 8
Hero calls, BB raises, Hero calls

Flop: (4 SB) 7 4 2 (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls

Turn: (3 BB) 2 (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls

River: (5 BB) T (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls

Hero shows 9s 8c (a flush, Ten high)
BB shows Qc 3s (a flush, Ten high)

Hand #34
Pre Flop: Hero is BB with K 8
BTN/SB raises, Hero calls

Flop: (4 SB) 6 3 7 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB bets, Hero calls

Turn: (3 BB) A (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB bets all in, Hero calls

River: (3.6 BB) 8

Hero shows Ks 8d (a flush, King high)
BTN/SB shows 4c Jd (Ace Jack high)

So I luckbox myself into him sitting out.

Thoughts?

I think i play most of the hands the same when i do decide to switch it up and start limping.

I've had some success with this strategy when countering excessive 3bettors. Maybe rebluffing is better but I sure as hell can't figure it out well enough. Usually when I try I just end up spewing.

Be careful though cause if the guy can adjust to your switchup plan you have to counteradjust (or just quit him cause it's probably not the best spot)

Hi

In hand #4, is bluff inducing a reason for not Ch/Raising the flop?
Bluff inducing OOP seems like a good way to miss a lot of value.
Is not it?

Thanks

I think most these hands look pretty good. I don't play alot of HU so I haven't been in a situation where I need to open limp to counter a super aggressive. I am just aware that it doesn't change his range much and if they want to bloat pots OOP that's fine with me. I could see it being tough though when you get a long string of below average non-showdownable hands

I like how you played the AA hand PF to balance your other limps. I see other spots I would have limped/raised also, JT/QT even 98 and/or raised/capped.

I'm curious how many here have adjusted to such an opponent like OP has. If so, do you find it hard to balance those open-limps. Which is why I assume OP is also limping those decent HU hands. With position it seems like we are giving up alot of value.


EDIT: Forgot to mention there were a few spots where I would have 3-bet OOP. I think one was hand #18 JTs. It's a good spot to see how he reacts to aggression

All,
Why do you have to rebluff more when up against a crazy 3ber? Its not obvious to me that just calling more and bluffing in your usual spots won't work just as well or better.

I'm pleased to see someone who is brave enough to limp otb

Anyway, I thoroughly enjoyed reading the history and I liked how you picked your spots to bluff.

One thing I observed is that you rarely raised the flop.

IMO it all depends how they play postflop. If they LET you bluff them then by all means do so. But I don't think those are the ones you are talking about when you say crazy.

Against the ones who are not shy about rebluffing you or calling down with Khi alot you are just hitting your head against a brick wall trying to bluff them. A common leak a lot of players have is trying to fight over the top agression with agression in places it just doesnt work.

i don't see the point in limping all your hands, even strong ones like K7s.

other than that:

#19 call flop to raise turn
#20 don't c/r flop, just call (he seems to like to check behind on turns, if you are passive, but can go nuts against aggression)

there were other spots that were kinda meh.

V, I don't know if your post was in reference to mine at all. The spots I mentioned were mostly for balancing OP's limping more(a strategy I queston) and at the same time for value. I think it's important to bluff the usual spots as you mention, and yes, I think coming over the top of him PF at least to see how he reacts is wise.

Isn't it because since the average pot is more bloated the value of bluffing goes up since the reward for stealing the pot is higher. And we give up too much by not fighting more for the pots.

That's what I always figured light 3bettors were trying to do. They bloat the pots and continually take the initiative away from you so they force you to either make a hand or retake the initiative and try to get them to fold. And guys who don't adjust get run over.

wolf,
if you redefine what hand qualifies as a "made" hand then they can't win with this strat.

now you may be able to win more with a rebluffing strat, i dunno, i'm sure it depends on how bad the villain is.

Also, guys, here is something I never understood. If you know a guy's doing something wrong by 3-bing pf too much, why would you now start limping and preventing him from making this mistake? Is it because you "just know" he will make an even bigger mistake when you limp?

I don't think anybody said that 3-betting "too much" was a mistake. I for one like it better when my opponents don't 3bet at all, which has to mean it's actually better for my opponents to 3bet a lot. But that might be cause I haven't figured out the best way to counter super-light 3betting.

Which is why I like switching back-and-forth to an open-limping strategy. It allows me to play junk hands like T7o in position for 2bets and to l/rr my stronger range for value. And villains will often make mistakes vs this strategy cause they're unused to it (i.e. they'll try to hard to bluff you out of the pot which is now a full big bet smaller).

3-betting too much is a mistake by definition of the word "too much". if the villain 3-bets you >50% we can be sure he's making a mistake.

it's also pretty clear that the correct adjustment is not to limp every hand.

I hadn't looked at the actual hands you were limping until now. I think its a mistake to limp a hand as strong as K7s. FWIW i only limp hands where I think my net loss limping will be less than raising and being 3bet or folding preflop. So pretty much my bottom 25-30% I am limping or folding.

With K7s you are way ahead of his 3betting range and have position keeping the pot small is not in your best interest.

An opponent who 3bets you frequently is hardly a problem, he is bloating the pot oop with often marginal holdings and then continuing to put money into the pot postflop. As long as you dont fold too much or make too many bad bluffs your opponent has no advantage. You can be a lot more generous when counting pair outs vs a 3better with a really wide range so you can make a lot of really thin peels. But as I find frequent 3betters to be very showdown bound and unbluffable I use bluff the minimum amount i can get away with so that i can still get value from all my good hands vs them.

the idea is that you l/rr strong hands like K7s. That's one of the advantages of the limp strategy vs overaggro guys. You get to choose which hands you play for 2 bets and which hands you play for 3.

You can't argue poker with grammar. People say "too much" because it's more than they're used to. You still haven't given a reason for why 3betting more than 50% is wrong.

care to explain why

Hey, I'm not going to go over every comment here, but say few comments, which might or might not be correct, and which might have been covered earlier.

First, I don't think it's necessary to start limping, but I think it's not completely trivial how to adapt even if you have some idea of the villain's postflop play. What I'm mainly concerned about is the times that neither of you have a hand and you fold in bloated pots. And if you only re-bluff infrequently, you don't get your fair share of pots UI, especially given that the pot is larger. The important point here is that "have a hand" means different things in different contexts. If you're used to evaluating your hand strength against more reasonable 3-betting ranges, it might be somewhat more difficult.

This is true. My only concern about this is that it's difficult enough to understand what a "made hand" is in normal pots too. What most people think of as light call down is actually nowhere near EV zero call down. And when you add 50% to the pot size, it's way more lighter. And this all of course mangles with the board texture and it will be somewhat hard to figure out the relative hand strength. Notice that you also need to redefine your value-betting/raising range in this scenario.


I've actually not been doing this at all before, hence the original post anyhow, but I think it's more of a not being quite sure how to correctly adapt to such style. Which is not to say that one shouldn't learn that, but

Also, it's not inconceivable that the opponent does make bigger mistakes when you start limping, but I don't think it's often clear if this really is the case and it's really difficult to say.

The weakness of the l/rr is that is prevents you from playing a pot for 4 bets, at least the times that just you want to. What is your threshold for whether a hand is good enough to l/rr vs raise/cap? Also if you l/rr and your opponent just calls he will likely be checking the flop to you so theres 3BB in the pot when its your action. If you raise and he three bets you theres 3.5BB in the pot when you are acting on the flop and with a strong hand like K7s this is a much better spot.

1. the simplest evidence that 3-betting >50% is too much is that all high stakes pros as well as Polaris 3-bet substantially less than 50%.

2. as for why i think always limping is not the correct adjustment, chester just beat me to it. to restate: raising with a strong hand gives you more control over the pot size.

I like to raise/cap these types a ton. I probably fold about 5% more hands on the button and I try to resteal the initiative alot on the flop or turn.

So I'm raising his flop lead after a 3bet a lot, or I'm floating and raising his turn bet very wide.

Also due to all the pots being larger I'm getting to showdown a lot more.

in addition to my strategy I should say, if he starts playing back at you a ton postflop then you can just slow down the bluffraising and value own him when you flop a pair with an immediate raise/cap on the flop.

I think the extra value you get on your made hands will usually make up for the extra SB you put in with not so nice hands pf.

I also don't like the dynamic of lrr. So I've never really tried out the limp strategy.

To start limping when you get 3 bet a lot is perfectly fine. Just see how he reacts to your limps. If he starts raising every hand hes clearly putting you in a great spot. Now you play your usual spot but with the advantage of him having initiative while youre in position in a relatively small Pot.


Geting 3bet a ton takes away initiative from you and takes away the advantages of opening a huge % of your hands in the sb, bluffing becomes alot more difficult.

Of course it depends how your opponents plays postflop. I played guys who would just c/f flop or Turn in case they didnt hit or would spew horribly vs my made hands in wich case Id be happy you just keep raising my btn.

oh and l/rr is perfectly fine too, that you cant cap some hands is no argument against l/rr you have alot more hands youd rather play a 2BB instead of 3BB Pot compared to those you want to get that more sb in, there are also not a ton of additional hands you should start capping with...of course its all relative depending on the opponent