I'm moving to Vegas next month, because hey, I'm single, in my mid-20's, have a bit of a roll on me, and it's just where I want to be. I do intend on job searching if grinding doesn't work out, as I have a certain red zone amount for my life roll that I know I can't be stubborn with. I do know some people at one casino to land a job, though of course no guarantees. Having over a year of casino experience (over six months dealing blackjack and poker both), I figure that should help me if I just go on an applying spree to everywhere possible.

My dad will be moving out likely a month or two after me, once he sells his house, and we'll get a place to split living expenses. It's good to have him be supportive of my Vegas ambitions and he is hopping on board with it. I won't say no to that. I'm fully expecting to have a full month where I can get an extended stay and be able to just grind while being out there on my own.

I do have a plan in mind. It would be to bankroll $3k and at minimum goal, turn it into $5k in one month (i.e. about the typical income for a decent paying full time job in a month, or a really good part-time job as I've had). This would be playing $1-$2 and $1-$3 at a $300 buy-in level. I do prefer to buy-in $500 for $1-$3, so I'll probably stick with mostly $1-$2 and try to eat up softer games like Bally's, Flamingo and Harrahs. Will also play plenty at Venetian thanks to best rake/comps, but I think the softness of the games at the other locations definitely can make-up for paying more and getting less.

If I do this for six months and average $2k a month, I have built to a $15k bankroll and some back-up funds on top. At that point, perhaps I make a new goal with a higher monthly bankroll.

One strategy I will rely on is, while I do buy-in deeper to cash games, I am good at enforcing a one-and-done policy. If I bust one buy-in, I get up and leave. Maybe I wouldn't be done for the day, but I would at the very least take a breather and change tables or even location so I can start a new session with a fresh mindset.

I'm curious on what people's opinions are of this idea? Price of busting the $3k roll is to do the working thing at that point and have to play on the side. I definitely think $2k is manageable per month if you put in the time, have a level head with discipline, and don't blow the side money on stupid stuff. I know I have to be cautious with the women too!

Additionally, I do find value in the daily tournaments like Orleans' Friday night and Aria's. Are these $125's worth doing say twice a week, or is that taking away too many hours from grinding cash? Also, I have been more keen to playing PLO in the last year, but do think I should limit those sessions since I've experienced both sides of the high variance, and historically have broken my one-and-done policy in PLO. I don't really have that problem playing Hold'em. Should I stay away from PLO as a whole, or maybe throw in 2-3 sessions over the course of the month to change it up? Maybe only do so if I am ahead early?

Have you ever played poker?

Playing deep stack requires skill, increases variance and probably increases the gambling factor, ie no good to get implied odds and catch a hand if nobody will call.

I'd suggest playing 100bb cash until you prove yourself over say 200 hour with a winrate over $20/hr before playing too deep.

I like a two and out buyin strategy myself, doesn't happen very often.

Pete is giving you good advice above.

I think that your 2K figure is very, very ambitious. A common error when moving here to play poker is overestimating the number of hours that you will play poker. It's easy to say - "I'm going to play 40 hours a week!!!" but can you actually do that and play good solid, winning poker? Very, very few people can, it's near impossible. A more realistic goal is closer to 25 hours/week which would bring you to about $1k/month and that's assuming you are a winning player!

As for the tourneys, I don't think you really have much of a roll that would allow you to play both cash and tourneys - it's barely a roll for either one. If you are going to go down that road then you should pay the lowest vig possible such as the Wynn dailies. Aria is a nice room, no doubt, but the vig is effectively double what you'll play at Wynn.

playing 40 hours of live poker a week is not all too difficult if you don't have a full time job

if you can't play 6-8 hour sessions without worrying you're going to not play your A game, i don't think poker if for you =)

i hate the one and done idea (although i can see why it benefits certain personality types), but not going to elaborate on the obvious reasons why it's bad

that being said: OP if you don't have a substantial amount of data to back up that you're a winning player you're taking quite a risk, just my 2 cents

and def stay away from MTTs, and def PLO to minimize the chances of going busto

if you decide to come out gl baby!

Agreed 40 hours a week is easy. I did over 200 in a month and I hate live poker now, most these grinders still enjoy it for some reason. Playing deeper is definitely more profitable, ive never had a huge downswing in cash over the last two years in Vegas, mainly cuz every once in awhile somebody will stack off for 200 BB with top pair. A lot of tourists just have no clue when deep or can't fold for any amount of money, there's a lot of locals that have the same problem but tourists are still where the $$ is at.
PM questions and hit me up when you get out here. I've been grinding for almost 5 years now, 2 years in Vegas. I'm pretty bored with cash, it's just a job now, but can give you good info, especially on the locals know most of them by name.

I actually don't like buying on 100 bb's. My style of play isn't for everyone, but it's better suited for a deeper stacks, believe me. I use implied odds as a big part of my decision making and it's done me quite well overall. I prefer to play in deeper $1-$2 games, which I am used to since local $1-$2's play more like $2-$5, so I'm on a deeper end $1-$2 if you will. I won't play a $1-$2 game if it's capped at 100 bigs, and that's why I'd play Wynn's $1-$3 as opposed to Aria or Bellagio's.

Another thing going for me, is I am pretty good with game selection. If there's no money to be made in a game, I'll know by the first half hour, if not before I'm seated. I will then try to get another table or simply go to another room. A big reason I want to be out there is game selection is on my side, as opposed to where I'm currently at. I have to drive three hours to get any kind of choices. Everything nearby is either home games or a club running 1 or 2 games during specific hours of the night.

I do believe $3k for a poker-dedicated roll should be enough at this level, because it's 10 cash game buy-ins, or 24 daily tourney buy-ins if we include those. I think dailies are a good way to build the roll and being that I have decent live tournament results (especially in daily structures), getting down to at least a chop or something in one out of eight, if I were to play two a week, in a given month, is likely. Add on another cash or two and that is a profitable proposition. I do know tournaments are more investments and they are tough, but the great thing about them is it only takes 2nd or 3rd place money in an Orleans Friday night and you have a big portion of that $2k goal in one night, also figuring that you expect to win in cash overall. However, I do understand dedicating 6-7 hours to cash is going to be the better play the majority of the time, so two a week might be pushing it.

If I can profit that $1k, I don't necessarily reach my goal, but it would cover a month's worth of living expenses and could afford me another month to basically try again. Being that I like playing in deeper games where I can get paid off higher than the norm for a typical $1-$2, I do think $2k a month average is certainly probable, if I can put in 35-40 hours, as a consistent winning player, no?

One thing I never have really calculated is my hourly, as it just seems like it's so variable. I could make $800 in 3 hours, make $50 in 10 hours, lose $300 in 1 hour, or lose $300 in 10 hours. So I can average $65 an hour one week, then -$10 an hour the next, $22 the next. Just seems too sporadic for me. I just prefer to average out profit/loss per session, so if I can average +$100 in 20 sessions, which I feel like is certainly doable with my one-and-done strategy, preventing me from losing more than $300 at any given time, I just trust that I can have more $400-$500 winners in there.

By all means, feedback on my ideas and input is definitely appreciated and considered. Jim, thanks for telling me about Wynn's vig being better. I'll check them out if I decide to scratch my tournament itch. TNCJ, yes PLO can be evil, so I am going to try and stay away from it until I'm at a point I can grind for good. I also understand why 2nd and 3rd shells sometimes are necessary, especially in the right game, but yeah I hate feeling like I'm playing stuck and taking an hour or two to recharge the batteries make a huge difference for me.

Will do. Are you doing any kind of blog? If so, do they help with self-motivation? I'm going to log all my numbers overall, by month, weekly profit/loss, and my results by location, just to have some fun stats to look at after 3 months, 6 months, a year, two years, etc. Seems like doing something like this would help, but I know all about either getting bored or no longer having fun and it being work. Of course, it beats the hell out of working obviously!

Poker income app on Android is the best, it does all of that on 1 screen. I'm big on keeping track if your hourly with an app. Think you need 2000+ hours to get a fairly accurate number, before that you will have a good idea though.

- I have played poker in vegas full time for a living for the last 4 years. here is my advise

- Play only cash - Your hourly in $125 buyin tourneys will not come close to your cash hourly (I hope)
- Find out where all the freerolls are and grind your minimum hours required there and become part of the degenerate las vegas freeroll tour. It will pad your roll and if you go on a downswing you can count on 3-4 freerolls to bail you out with a bankroll boost.
- Spend at least 25% of your time studying the game away from the tables. ie get the free trials at poker sites online and watch excellent players explain thier lines and thought process/spend time thinking about hands you played/work out optimal play and find a friend who you can lab with about strategy. Everybody wants to play poker but few people spend the time learning how to play better when away from the tables. It kind of reminds me of the old saying about abs... they arnt made in the gym they are made in the kitchen. So make sure your poker nutrition is coming from the right sources and put in the work feeding yourself excellent quality information

Cliffs:
- OP moving to Vegas to grind, seeks advice;
- OP is given some excellent advice ITT;
- OP proposes to largely ignore said advice and go with original plan.

I like this dude.

Good luck to you, hope you crush the Orleans nightly and your 2k goal. Please update regularly for those of us who have to live vicariously through TR's in between spells.

Might have to get the app. I just don't play too much on my phone (like I literally don't download phone apps), and normally prefer my laptop, so I'll think of something.

I hear ya on these. I used to play tourneys a lot and just always had more fun with them. I've become more accustomed to playing cash in the last year or two, though.

I like the freeroll idea, and hope rooms run them, because I'm all for that.

Agreed that players should always be trying to get better. I think reviewing hands on here have helped me for future situations, and I notice there is that poker church. I'll see about checking that out upon getting out there.

Thanks. Been there, having to feed myself on other people's Vegas experiences. Still there now, until I do get there next month. I'm ready, but also staying patient, because I don't want to dive in head first and crack my head on the bottom of the pool.

I'm not necessarily ignoring the advice given. I do feel buying in for 100 bb's isn't very good for me, which is why I set on buying in deeper. As far as the tournaments, I do intend on sticking to cash for the most part, but I have always liked playing a good tourney, even despite them being tougher. Perhaps I limit it to 3-4 a month instead of 7-8, then I still get to play them every now and then, but not too much. I'll take making a $500 investment and taking four shots at achieving my monthly goal in one night. Just can't play them every day like I have done on trips out here, that much I know for sure.

Hi there!

Hey, I have no problem with the plan, except for one thing, and it's always the same thing in every one of these 'moving to take a shot' threads.

There is no good reason for the 'if I get blasted early, I'll go find a job' thing. Move there, and make job #1 getting a job. I know you (well ok, I've met you), you're a young guy. You can easily work a full-time job and still put in significant hours playing. Do that. Hell, I'm 47 and married, work a full-time job and have 2 kids under 8 years old and I have played 56 hours in January so far. In 2014 I put in 1144 hours. That's an average of 22 hours/week. If you're hourly is $12, that's adding a little over $1100/month on average to your roll. If you can do that, then why would you want to walk the high wire of attempting it with no job?

At that rate you'll have the roll to take shots at 2/5 in no time, and if you prove to be able to move up to 2/5 and have a solid win rate ($20/hr maybe? Not sure what is 'good' for 2/5 in Vegas), _then_ you can make the move to playing for a living.

Just my $.02 obv...either way, good luck!

Yeah I do plan on getting a job quick, but I do want to attempt it first. Hell even after a couple months even if I do succeed in the plan, maybe I get one anyway, because obviously with the 24/7 type lifestyle Vegas offers (which is what I love about it), you need to pass a lot of time.

I just know for an absolute fact I can make a go at this the first month no matter the result, so why not just grind for a month, see what happens, and see how I feel about it too? My outlook I'm sure will definitely change after doing it for a month, for better or worse, so I just want to experience it. No worries, I am not stubborn about getting a job. I for the most part had fun dealing blackjack at my local casino last year, and I know being in Vegas, I can have fun with it as well, so that makes it a lot easier to apply for jobs of course.

Good to hear from you again, DDT! Hope to see you out there again!

Well gl, but you're crazy to think that the daily MTTs are good bankroll builders. With their high rake% and relatively poor structures that add to the initial variance of live poker at ~30 hands/hr it's just not worth it but you and many others seem quite adamant that these are pieces of cake. And in terms o skill level they are but that doesn't justify the other variables that essentially make them rake fests. You're better off grinding online and or/waiting for the venues to hold their tournament series with good guarantees and much better structures for a few hundred more. If you do chose to incorporate dailys, which I would advise against, then you should be doing it at Aria or Venetian as they have the best 'bad' structures.

WHA????

Those are some of the highest rakes. Wynn offers the best daily, lowest structure and the potential for the largest starting stack. Wynn rake is half of what Aria charges.

How many runners does Wynn get in comparison? Couple years ago (last time I played a daily) they were only getting 40/50. Realistically whatever it is should be a moot point as his greatest roi for MTTs outside the DSE and other non daily MTTs in Vegas at his bankroll will be online.

The Wynn daily is way more profitable then Aria.

The rake is way lower and also the Aria daily takes so long.

Lets say you double your roi in the aria daily.

You turn your $125 into $200 as they rake $25.

That means you have a $100 profit for 7-8 hours. That's a pretty crappy hourly.

You would be far better off sitting in the $1/$3 at aria where you can make $20/$30 an hour.

I think WJ94 was crushing that game for $30+ an hour and he could probably have a higher hourly if he hit up places like MGM, ballys, mirage at like 2am when the drunks roll in.

On one hand OP is young so I think why not go for it. But I think it would be much more likely to work if he had more money.

But on the other hand I find it strange so many young people still want to be poker pros. I would only play poker if I had no decent job opportunities or loved it so much I would happily put in 40+ hours.

My advice would be to be if you do go for this. Play, study, play and take some shots and move up as quick as possible because the biggest fish with the deepest pockets don't play $1$/$3. And table change a lot. If you get a table with a bunch of OMC move ASAP. You want to play with drunks and the gamblers.

lemme know if you want any help working out a routine or anything when you get out here, gl

Wynn gets anywhere from 30-40 for the M-Th dailies. I have no idea what the other days draw since I don't play them.

It makes for a shorter day, an easier field to get through and you can also get an 11k starting stack. All of that and half the rake of Aria??? It makes no sense to choose Aria over Wynn.

I always did like playing the Aria tourney, but it's not like I'm going to commit to playing one or another routinely. I think I'll just go on feeling, and it's not like I'll play the Orleans Friday every week, but there will be some weeks that I say let's go and get in it.

I do agree that I should save tournaments for series like DSE, and WSOP time where the fields and struxtures are good. I am going to play the $250 at the end of Feb, that week's Orleans Friday night, then on Sunday (March 1st), is when I'd start this challenge, so I can turn my focus to grinding cash as I'll have tourney play out of the way.

Yeah I'd like to have a bigger roll, but I am looking at this more as a challenge than anything. I'm not necessarily feeling like I'm a pro or anything, just more testing it out as a grinder and seeing how it works with a preset bankroll and give it one month, see how it goes. If I win the challenge, I reset, do it another month, try it again. I know a $3k roll is easy to bust, but I also trust that if I am to be a winning player in this game, 10 buy-ins is plenty to find out.

I do have plenty of backup if I bust the roll, so that's why I can more than afford to try it out and see what happens with it. I fully understand it could just be optimism, but I definitely think $2k a month on average is doable in the right games for sure.


Thanks, I may hit you up on that, as I'd like to see how experienced Vegas grinders do things.

I think that your bankroll constraints leave very little margin for error than to just "go on feeling". You're obviously going to ignore the advice and work with 3K - if you're going to do that, at least get yourself a fairly defined plan to work from that gives you the best shot.

3K is really not ideal for both cash & MTT; play cash, avoid the promo drop rooms and guard your bankroll like a dog on a ribeye (watch tips, extra expenses, etc). That basically leaves you with the Venetian 1/2, work your way up to 5K and give yourself some breathing room.

Extra expenses do not apply, since $3k is not my life roll. Anything outside of poker will be spent using separate funds. I'm a life nit, though. I don't buy many pleasure purchases. One thing I will have to keep limited are massages. I love getting those, but even that would be considered an extra expense that have no effect on the poker bankroll itself, and those are good investments since they relax you. Regardless, I don't intend on spending much more than living expenses/food, especially for the first couple of months.

Jim, don't you think the added softness of games at Ballys/Flamingo/Harrahs wouldn't make up for extra dollar rake and the promo drop? I've played some easy $1-$2 games at Venetian, but also some complete nit-fests. The games have been looser in my experience at the aforementioned places, so wouldn't you say that would be just as profitable or no?

Jim is not a winning cash game player...

Indeed I am not. But that doesn't exclude me from the ability to do math and understand variance.

Would you recommend that the OP do this with a $400 bankroll? No

Would you recommend that the OP do this with a $40k bankroll? Yes

So there has to be a limit where the bankroll does/doesn't make sense. And that's completely independent of my skills as a player. 3k is most likely not the level that makes sense.

This isn't hard stuff squidoo. Try and keep up.