It is clearly not his job to refer you to competitors. No other industry would even think about such a thing.

You clearly have no professional experience whatsoever. In many professions it's actually a responsibility to refer on. I think poker coaching is a professional occupation. $200 an hour is a professional rate of pay in any case. But i'll point this out again as I have repeatedly - Roy DOES refer people to more suitable options and he DOES recommend using programs such as Leak Buster, but he didn't do that with me even after knowing how bad a player I am. I expected that for $200 an hour. Even if he had said to use Leak Buster for a while to address the big leaks before contacting him again, I would still be a student of his willing to part with thousands of dollars for the complete package he offers. I employed a premium priced coach for exactly this kind of advice and I didn't receive it and I felt I didn't get value for money. This made me doubt the quality of the rest of the coaching I would receive and this is why I decided to request a part refund. That should have been one of the recommendations given in the first report addressing my major leaks.

I would have much preferred that this all took place privately between Roy and I.

I was never suggesting Leak Buster would replace a personal coach, but it would definitely be useful in conjunction with a coach in the early, developing stages of a poker player.

When he did the DB analysis and pointed out what he thought your leaks were, what value is there for you in him then referring you to LeakBuster which is going to do the same thing, but less efficiently and less clearly? Theoretically, you'd just be getting the same information, but would have shelled out $50 more or whatever it costs.

And I'm pretty sure that had you expressed your belief that his coaching was more expensive than what you needed and asked for a coaching recommendation, he would have provided that for you.

lolno

You're funny guy. It's an ethical responsibility detailed in the code of conduct for a lot of helping professions - doctors, psychologists, psychiatrists, etc. They can be sued for malpractice if they don't and anything goes wrong. Obviously there's no such code for poker coaching, but it's still a helping profession.

I'm sure he would have, but for $200 an hour I would expect that kind of initiative.

Your timeline seems off, IMO. You're wanting him to include his recommendation as part of the $200 package, but you also seem to want him to have made that recommendation prior to paying the $200.

And if you've quit poker, I'm not sure why it's relevant anyways. Buyers remorse, IMO. And that's on you, not him.

No, as stated it should have been a recommendation in the report I paid for at the very least. But someone else suggested not even thinking about poker. One of these two things should have happened for sure. Granted, Roy didn't realise at first how bad I was but he could have discovered that easily by asking my BB/100 and other stats as part of the introductory questions. But as I said above, if he had made proper recommendations in the report I paid for about how to plug the major leaks and listened to me when I said I wanted to maximise the value with my time with him and recommended Leak Buster at the very least, i'd still be a student of his. If he thought I was that bad and listened to what I said about my health problems and didn't think I was capable of improving, I would have liked to have heard that as well.

He simply didn't make these recommendations and didn't demonstrate the initiative I expected for his price.

Didn't read most of this, but if you contacted him and were willing to pay the price he quoted you, I don't think you have a case. It sounds like he spent well more than an hour of his time trying to help you out so even if there was some confusion and you were disappointed with the advice he gave and felt you could have got better deal from someone else, then I don't think it was unethical /shady of him at all.

Also, the very nature of poker and poker players is to exploit their opponents, so some people will generally approach coaching arrangements with hesitation. I've had one guy emailing me since this starting telling me is a crushing $1000nl player and to get coaching from him for $100 per hour and that he plays on a site called wsex.com and to download the poker client and watch him play.

I didn't want any free advice, I wanted to ensure I was going to get value for my money before I paid for any service. The questions I asked were to ensure Roy had my best interests at heart. Things started out well, but then when I paid I wasn't happy with aspects of the service and I realised a number of things that should have been relayed to me were not, and I realised I wasn't getting value for money.

Botnic. This coach did everything he said he would and a lot more. He LET you investigate the hell out of him and you liked what he offered.

You are so wrong here. Not one person will honestly take your side in this dispute.

Apply this current dispute scenario with any other "purchase" you make in life that does not have a 100 percent implied guarantee. It doesn't fly.

You are responsible for your own actions and decisions at the poker table. This coach gave a GENUINE effort to help you improve and YOU failed and quit.

He owes you nothing.

I think that's the case with most people so i'll just keep responding with the same responses to every other post. I think the post above this explains this well.

Fair enough, decline my refund request for the time already spent, but listen to my complaints. Correspond with me privately and work out why i'm unhappy and settle things in that manner, and use the information to improve yourself as a coach if you think any of it has any merit. Disagree if you like, but don't post personal and private emails that were sent in confidence online. He could have approached this in a private and more professional manner.

"Hey,

I do coach, and reviewing videos is something that I have been doing a lot of lately and seeing good results from my students. My rates might be too high though, I charge $250/hr. I have a page on coaching at www.godlikeroy.com/coaching if you want find more information.

I could recommend some other coaches if my rates are too steep, just let me know what you'd like to pay and I'll ask around to see if anyone is coaching at those rates.

Best of luck,

Roy"

He never said any such thing to me. Also, people keep talking about how i'm a grown man and about my lack of personal responsibility, but that's why I explained my health problems to Roy. I didn't want to be taken advantage of and I needed someone I could trust not to do that. Unfortunately, when you have a progressive disease of the brain like I do, personal responsibility is taken away from you to some degree. Perhaps I was expecting too much of him as a poker coach.

And I don't expect sites to do that either, but I expect premium priced helping professionals/coaches who are interested in the best course of action to develop their player to do so. I paid a premium for this service and didn't feel I got it. I feel my circumstances are different to that of most other players in that i'm sure he doesn't have any other players with an organic disease of the brain, and I needed more direction from him. That's what I paid for and that's what I explained in my emails before I paid for my first session. When I wasn't happy with a number of things, I didn't feel I was getting value and complained. As i've said before, I think a responsible minimum first step would have been to suggest working with leak buster for a while or a cheaper coach, especially given my circumstances. He has done this for others.

I'm sure I can find some people in support of me too. Not general poker players who have never had any experience with chronic illness, but others who have will sympathise.

You are bringing the attention to your personal and private matters. It is now edited and you are the only one to keep making a big deal out of it. The coach has continuously respected the privacy of your personal matters itt. Even after you sarcastically implied he has no class.

He doesn't owe it to you to "work out why you're unhappy". And how HE "improves as a coach" is of no concern to you.

It's $200 dollars. $200 dollars to a former poker player. If your dealings with this coach influenced you to make the decision to quit poker, well, consider it a win. There's not a huge percentage of winning poker players in the world. You just got to figure this fact out for yourself before you lost a lot of money, which you obviously don't handle too well.

He doesn't owe you an ongoing relationship after you inform him that you quit. Let it go.

You never "explained your health problems" to me. You mentioned them briefly in a passing sentence.

You never mentioned you were prone to making bad decisions.

You never said you needed to be looked out for and not taken advantage of.

You never said you had a progressive disease of the brain.

I am not an expert on your condition nor should I be.

I did in fact look up your condition when you first mentioned it and while I didn't spend hours researching it, from briefly reading the wiki page the general gist that I got was that it would make you very tired. I didn't gather it would make you make poor decisions nor that the condition required everyone who dealt with you to baby you through every decision.

Please stop insinuating that you someone explicitly explained your condition to me at the beginning of our discussions and stated things such as you were prone to making bad decisions or that you had a degenerative brain disease. This never happened.

I suggested one of us make this situation public to get an unbiased perspective from others. You did this.

I have heard your complaints. I have listened to why you are unhappy.

I have provided my thoughts on the scenario and apologised for even the small things that weren't done perfectly.

I don't believe I owe you a refund, nor does anybody else. I won't be giving you a refund.

I feel like there is nothing further for me to learn from any future contact with you regarding this situation.

I am sorry you were unhappy with your dealings with me but I stand firm that I did nothing wrong and provided the service that you paid me for.

First rule of SSPLO: Roy is always right.

Botnic11, Roy seems to have done nothing wrong here. I don't see what the problem is and you sound like someone who's just trying to scramble back $150.

might be taking this out of context cause i didnt read most of thread, but you essentially want free analysis from Roy that you need cheaper/more basic analysis???

It really really sounds like you're blaming Ron for being a terrible player despite the fact that you were losing before contacting him.

I think initially he was stating that he wanted me to recommend Leak Buster to him before any coaching had taken place but he has since changed his stance to be that I should have included a recommendation of Leak Buster to him in my report when I did my DB analysis for him.

I don't think that this is completely ludicrous as I have recommended LB to people I have coached before, but it was always to people who I sweated or did other forms of coaching and never a DB analysis.

It seemed/seems very redundant to me for me to recommend a piece of software that analyses a player's database in a report in which I just spent an hour analysing that player's database.

This is the part where I stopped taking you seriously.

You're the one who started the thread. Perhaps he should have left out the email but I'm 103.5% certain he didn't include them maliciously and was just trying to be honest and upfront. Coaches don't have any sort of commitment to tell you about LB or books or anything, Roy was going out of his way to help you. You wouldn't expect a chevy salesman to say 'actually, I think you'd be better off with a ford'.

The first paragraph is just hilarious. It's your responsibility to make good life decisions, not someone who doesn't know you.


Also loooolllllolololol at the idea of Roy trying to scam someone for $200 or even $20k.

So go away and keep your opinons to yourself.

It's starts with a small amount and turns into thousands with most scammers. Im sure Roy isn't a scammer and I admit I shouldn't have accused him of ripping me off, but I was angry when I sent the email and unhappy with my experience with him. Roy should have kept this private, especially all the personal information I provided to him. While there are a few people like you who have to make these kinds of comments, there are others who will read and realise they don't want their private emails and personal issues posted on a public forum if they aren't happy with their coaching with Roy and decide to make a complaint. There are others too who will recognise that I wasn't give complete information and decide to go with another coach, if it all.

Thanks for your comment about my first paragraph. You obviously have very limited life experience and no experience with chronic illness. I hope some day you do, though.