I have played cash game poker is several states for fifty years. I have played casinos, but mostly the outlaw games in the backrooms of my beloved Texas. I did not see very much cheating. Regardless of what has been written, there is definately more cheating now than there was in the big poker games of the 60s on. Where talented poker players gathered like Doyle Brunson, Johnny Moss, etc., most of them knew a great deal about how to protect themselves from cheating. Many people had guns with them or guns in their cars. Would you try to cheat in those games even if you knew how???

Anybody you can cheat, I can beat on the square. I did not cheat, but it wasn't a moral issue. I was afraid of those folks. They were afraid of each other. The higher the game, the less chance of cheating at card manipulation, marked cards, shiners, bottom stacking. However, partners are almost impossible to prevent or detect if they are good at it. That went on and still goes on.

Its easier to cheat and far more common online. Recently, a web site made an error. If everyone went all in on the first hand, the site paid one first and everyone else second. The players took advantage...cheated the site, that's a switcheroo...for as along as they could, until the site caught the error. What does this prove?? It is already proven, people will cheat if they can. Just because you personally wouldn't cheat makes you more likely to be a chump. The old gamblers were extreme cynics, trusting no one. Everyone was hyper-vigilent, alert to cheating. I never take my eyes off the deck. I am watching out for cheating all the time.

In fifty years, I have seen a very few cold decks brought into the game. Every time I did know of it, the guy doing it was a very tough, gunman type, basically willing to muscle for the boodle if necessary. Those guys get barred or move on. Some get shot, but rarely. Anyone crazy enough to try hand moves against some talent are probably drunk. You don't want any violence over a card game. Cheaters are tough. Cheaters are crazy. Cheaters are rare, live. In Nevada, cheaters work under surviellance, the eye-in-the-sky and they can go to prison.

My cousin spent a career in Las Vegas working the dice and blackjack, first for the mob at the Sands in its heyday. Later for Howard Hughes. Later for the heartless corporations. People were rightly afraid to steal from the mob, just like people are rightly afraid to cheat in Texas poker games. When Hughes took over, employees began to steal and they still do. Casinos are all about preventing cheating and theft. They trust no one. Why should poker players.?

You will see more attempts to cheat in home games, college student games, than you will in higher games because the penalty for being caught is dreadfully severe. It takes a nutcase to cheat but there are herds of them around.

People playing partners on the Internet is, I am almost certain, the most prevalent form of cheating in the world. Am I right of wrong???

Johnny Hughes

Well, yes, for one that isnt cheating - the site made the screw up which made the games pay out more than they took in - this is certainly not cheating by any definition available.

Secondly, yes, cheating happens online BUT its easier to track and catch people doing it. Just like vegas has the eye in the sky, sites have every single hand recorded - they find out if two players are sat together more than they should, if you fold big but second best hands you are flagged, if you are flagged too often you are investigated. If you repeatedly raise out other players then it will be tracked and you will be investigated, if you play from the same IP you wont be allowed to sit together.

How many safeguards are there in live games? Id rather have a computer tirelessly watching the deck and the players in the hand rather than some guy doing so in a live setting (or me doing so, or both).

I feel much safer when i play online than live - i know that cheating goes on all the time online and probably live too, but i know that the people doing so are regularly caught and the good sites redistribute seized funds to those cheated.

**** you.

I think most people on this site pride themselves in not cheating and catching people who do. When online poker is made legal again and it is regulated. IP tracking for collusion will be much bigger and better. We need, unfortunately outside regulation because the House is not getting cheated, the players are, and they don't really care.

Bull****. Just because a site error allowed the cheating doesn't mean it wasn't cheating. In the SNGs in question (after the first one), players colluded to get all in on the first hand -- you're not going to claim that wasn't cheating, I hope? And then withdrawing the money fast so the error couldn't be corrected, knowing the site would and should try because the payouts had been wrong -- if you're going to claim that's honest, then you're just helping prove the OP's point.

The one thing to note is that an Internet casino can easily detect partners if they want to. Some try, some don't. A large part of the popularity of Poker Stars, over the long-term, is due to the fact that their reputation is that they try the hardest.

Its not collusion if no player is effected by it - if it is, its time to ban most of bbv for doing flippaments. A group of people deciding to play a game and go all in on the first hand is NOT cheating.

What happened regarding the withdrawal is irrelivent - the people were worried the site would confiscate the money they made because they exploited a loophole there. This doesnt make them cheats either, just cynics.

The site made the error with the payout structure, why shouldnt a player take advantage of that error? This is in no way cheating - several companies have made errors in their ad copy that have cost them vast amounts of money but they had to pay it out because they were in fault for doing so.

Reminds me of the drink Tango - they had an ad campaign where you collect the ring pulls from the cans, then you get prizes. In the tv ad they mentioned getting a harrier jumpjet if you get several million ringpulls as a joke. One guy managed to get enough to win a jumpjet. They were forced to give him the cash equiv of a military aircraft because of a joke.

Did the guy in question cheat Tango?

You walk along the street and find a $100 dollar bill. Someone has written "Please return to Fred xxxx at zzz address" do you return it?

Did you steal?

i will kill you if you cheat in my home game
that is the penalty

"If no player is effected by it" ehm the HOUSE is effected, you are cheating the house of money by taking advantage of an OBVIOUS error. Saying otherwise is immature.

You mean then that the online casinos don't cheat and that the playing partners is the most prevalent form ofcheating? If your premise is that people cheat if they can, then surely online casinos can cheat.

Tango source please? A brief google got me nothing and sounds interesting.

"The site made the error with the payout structure, why shouldnt a player take advantage of that error? This is in no way cheating - several companies have made errors in their ad copy that have cost them vast amounts of money but they had to pay it out because they were in fault for doing so."

So if the clerk at the grocery store, service station, McDonalds, gives you change for a $20 when you gave them a $5, that's not stealing or cheating?

Just an error on their part and you have no moral or legal obligation to correct it?

The house should pay its stupid tax and any way you view it the players arent at fault for the houses error. Also, the house is not a player - i chose my words very carefully.

The way it works is the house makes the games and charges rake, we play the games. How are players at fault here and even if they are, it certainly isnt cheating.

Who cares if it was an obvious error - as poker players we take advantage of peoples errors all the time - by your definition we are all cheats because the bad players make obvious mistakes.

Tbh, i was thinking about it after it and i cant remember exactly where i heard it - im pretty sure it was some tv program.

It might be one of those urban legend things that never happened though, not entirely sure. Ill look into it more when i have time cos im curious whether it was real or not myself

Those things are not the same, but nice try sir.

"The site made the error with the payout structure, why shouldnt a player take advantage of that error? This is in no way cheating - several companies have made errors in their ad copy that have cost them vast amounts of money but they had to pay it out because they were in fault for doing so."

Could someone please explain to this person why his analogy is horribly flawed.

So some businesses can make a mistake and you're inclined to be honest, but others, not so?

All businesses make money from your patronage. What sets the poker sites apart in your thinking?

Not a personal attack, just trying to understand your logic here.

I'd give it back, but only because the Jesuits ****ed up my mind with guilt.

ldo you should keep it, because you will throughout time get short-changed often enough for it to even out.

Couldn't you start a new thread and explain yourself?

I would just like to say I disagree with the title of this thread.

Some people will not cheat, even if it is presented right to them on a silver platter. Some people do actually manage to maintain a level of integrity. Most people, however, if given a chance of getting away with cheating and receiving some benefit for it, will seize the chance.

interesting thoughts.

I used to cheat at monopoly against my neighbors. they still played with me.

good thing it was not high stakes monopoly

i guess my grandpa is OP. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Plz define chump.

I was going to, but couldn't decide where to start. But I'll give it a go:

If the ad copy constitutes a (legal or moral -- the concepts usually coincide) contract, then the person taking advantage of the mistake agrees to the mistaken contract, and adheres to that. On the other hand, in the case of the mistaken payouts the contract the players have agreed to is based on a correct payouts -- the mistake was made after the player agreed to terms.

Also, patently unreasonable terms do not in fact create a legal contract, particularly if the customer knows or should know that a mistake has been made; most would agree they don't create a moral obligation either. In the case of the pull tab collection for a Harrier, the terms were judged not to be unreasonable because of the extraordinary effort involved in collecting so many tabs in exchange for the extraordinary expense of a Harrier (which I think they couldn't award because of the weaponry, which is why they gave the cash value instead). But in the case of absurd terms, such as an obviously offset decimal point in a price, courts usually do not hold the store to the obviously erroneous terms, and most people would agree that they shouldn't. (There have been exceptions, but not all judges are reasonable.)

So in the case of a mistaken advertisement, the customer agrees to the terms as presented, and the agreement is upheld only if it was not obviously an error at the time of the agreement. In the case of the erroneous payouts, the customer agreed to a certain payout structure when he entered the event, but the software glitch subsequently caused an overpayment relative to the agreement. Also, the payouts awarded were obviously unreasonable, and everybody knew it at the time.

Not concise, and there's more to it, but that's what came to my mind first.

Online poker is not a game of skill, rather a contest of who can cheat more effectively. If you aren’t multi-accounting, colluding, chip-dumping, seeing hole cards, using tracking software, and programming bots, you’re just making a donation to those that do.

rofl, ur a moran.