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Loosing too much from the blinds Loosing too much from the blinds

03-26-2017 , 11:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renekton
Your 3bet% will depend on how often the BTN opens and his bet size but I've had good results with ~8.5%. A lot of the hands play fine as calls or bad as 3bets. A9s for example plays well as a call because BTN opens with many weaker aces. 3betting it will reduce his range to stronger aces than yours. KJo is also another bad 3bet, unless BTN is opening really wide, for similar reasons but it also doesn't have much playability post flop. A hand like 76s makes a good candidate for 3betting because it doesn't play very well as a call (poor implied odds when BB vs BTN) but it has a lot of playability post flop. You can flop draws often and it improves your board coverage on low card flops.
I see thank you what about Att to steal do you also feel I should be doubling my 22?
Loosing too much from the blinds Quote
03-26-2017 , 11:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shamway99
Really too tight both pre and post, try to go for some adventure and enjoy the more difficult game.
+1, Get in there people it can really take your game to whole new levels.
Loosing too much from the blinds Quote
03-26-2017 , 11:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puma1
I see thank you what about Att to steal do you also feel I should be doubling my 22?
Yeah bro definitely double it, it's essential for your win rate. Also you will be forced to get out of your comfort zone therefore increasing your game in general.
Loosing too much from the blinds Quote
03-26-2017 , 11:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puma1
I see thank you what about Att to steal do you also feel I should be doubling my 22?
I thought 22 was your RFI on SB. Pardon ignore my post about it. You dont have to double att2steal get it somewhere between 30-40. And look at your postflop game there are leaks visible even on basic stats.
Loosing too much from the blinds Quote
03-26-2017 , 11:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shamway99
Tripple it. It is not a joke.
In general you are bit too tight. It is not only your 19%VP (I mark player under 20% as too tight, target for blind steal).
There are other stats like 60% fold to cb. Why should it be so high? Usually cb is smaller than potbet and you should defend over 50%. It can be scewed by mw spots but 60% is too much. The same for turn and river, you are overfolding all streets.
68% fold to flop bet shows you are not able to defend your check range otf, why when you have only 50%cbet, your checking range must be strong.
Also att to steal 22% is low, comon CO and BTN RFI are 30% 40% which should result in Att2st above 30%.

Really too tight both pre and post, try to go for some adventure and enjoy the more difficult game.
Thank you I will try to loosen up, but can you please help me learn to indentify good spots to float or good boards to cbet, potentialy double barrel with air. What kind of information am I looking for?
Loosing too much from the blinds Quote
03-26-2017 , 12:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puma1
I see thank you what about Att to steal do you also feel I should be doubling my 22?


I think you should be stealing more often from SB but don't open 40% if you don't feel comfortable playing post flop OOP. I tried that and I was just giving money to BB. I would recommend increasing your opening your range in small increments. I also want to make a note about the KJo comment I made. Once you get better at post flop you can start 3betting hands like that to take advantage of the fold equity you get from 3betting. I'm not near that level, nor are you, so that's why I said it's bad to 3bet that hand.
Loosing too much from the blinds Quote
03-26-2017 , 12:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puma1
Thank you I will try to loosen up, but can you please help me learn to indentify good spots to float or good boards to cbet, potentialy double barrel with air. What kind of information am I looking for?
it is a very complex question. In general pay few attention to V's advanced stats like AF, they need big sample. Concentrate rather on your own range to play it cca correctly.
Ofc good hands for floats are hands with equity or potential to improve.
Ofc good hands for bluffs are hands with draw potential, hands that block his calling range and do not block folding range. Anyway you have to do the work, analyse many hands etc etc...
Loosing too much from the blinds Quote
03-26-2017 , 12:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rapidesh123
folding AQ vs some villains is fine, if a 14 VPIP nit(in 6-max) raises from UTG to 3x and you're in the BB, do you call?
It's nitty to fold, but you will be OOP vs a super tight range, and will be dominated by AK, also this kind of guy probably don't even open AJ from UTG.

So by calling with AQ, you will either:
win a small pot, because villain won't pay you off with the A/Q on the board.
Lose a big pot when you catch a pair and villain has you dominated.

You probably don't face this kind of villain a lot, but they exist, they're all over the place, specially in NL10/NL5, nits are probably the most common type of player in those player pools. They're less frequent in NL25 but they are still in a decent number.
Well that's all very nice but that guy was talking about folding AQ as a standard so idk why you went off on this tangent.
Loosing too much from the blinds Quote
03-26-2017 , 12:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shamway99
it is a very complex question. In general pay few attention to V's advanced stats like AF, they need big sample. Concentrate rather on your own range to play it cca correctly.
Ofc good hands for floats are hands with equity or potential to improve.
Ofc good hands for bluffs are hands with draw potential, hands that block his calling range and do not block folding range. Anyway you have to do the work, analyse many hands etc etc...

How exactly do I interpret AF? My overall AF is 3, also around 3(+/-0.1)) on all three streets individualy.
Loosing too much from the blinds Quote
03-26-2017 , 12:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rapidesh123
Is it an optimal range pre to RFI 40% of hands in the SB vs a competent opponent or are you considering those guys that almost never defend their blinds?

BTW, for those guys who don't like folding AQ pre, some exploitative plays vs nits/unknowns who looked like nits.

PokerStars - $0.25 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 100 BB (VPIP: 16.00, PFR: 14.00, 3Bet Preflop: 9.09, Hands: 52)
SB: 99 BB (VPIP: 22.34, PFR: 21.28, 3Bet Preflop: 17.65, Hands: 97)
BB: 50 BB (VPIP: 42.86, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 7)
Hero (UTG): 100 BB
MP: 215.88 BB (VPIP: 26.79, PFR: 20.54, 3Bet Preflop: 10.00, Hands: 114)
CO: 481.16 BB (VPIP: 25.10, PFR: 17.41, 3Bet Preflop: 8.99, Hands: 249)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has J J

Hero raises to 2.32 BB, fold, CO calls 2.32 BB, BTN raises to 11.2 BB, fold, BB calls 10.2 BB, Hero calls 8.88 BB, fold

Flop: (36.32 BB, 3 players) T 8 3
BB checks, Hero checks, BTN bets 17.36 BB, BB calls 17.36 BB, fold

Turn: (71.04 BB, 2 players) Q
BB bets 21.44 BB and is all-in, BTN calls 21.44 BB

River: (113.92 BB, 2 players) 8

Spoiler:
BB shows Q 9 (Two Pair, Queens and Eights)
(Pre 13%, Flop 13%, Turn 17%)
BTN shows A A (Two Pair, Aces and Eights)
(Pre 87%, Flop 87%, Turn 83%)
BTN wins 108.8 BB


With that sizing, should have folded OTF.

PokerStars - $0.25 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 122.84 BB (VPIP: 13.33, PFR: 6.67, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 15)
SB: 110.72 BB (VPIP: 11.11, PFR: 7.41, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 55)
BB: 100 BB (VPIP: 26.95, PFR: 19.76, 3Bet Preflop: 6.85, Hands: 171)
UTG: 214.44 BB (VPIP: 21.76, PFR: 16.32, 3Bet Preflop: 7.23, Hands: 247)
Hero (MP): 133.92 BB
CO: 97.96 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has Q Q

fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, CO calls 3 BB, BTN raises to 11 BB, fold, fold, Hero calls 8 BB, CO calls 8 BB

Flop: (34.4 BB, 3 players) 2 9 2
Hero checks, CO checks, BTN bets 24.6 BB, Hero calls 24.6 BB, fold

Turn: (83.6 BB, 2 players) 9
Hero checks, BTN bets 59.88 BB, fold

BTN wins 79.84 BB


PokerStars - $0.25 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 132.12 BB (VPIP: 17.90, PFR: 12.40, 3Bet Preflop: 6.06, Hands: 1,253)
SB: 109.52 BB (VPIP: 31.03, PFR: 12.07, 3Bet Preflop: 6.90, Hands: 59)
Hero (BB): 140.84 BB
UTG: 143.6 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 4)
MP: 517.2 BB (VPIP: 26.36, PFR: 21.82, 3Bet Preflop: 16.67, Hands: 114)
CO: 110.44 BB (VPIP: 27.01, PFR: 19.54, 3Bet Preflop: 4.17, Hands: 178)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has J J

UTG raises to 2 BB, fold, CO raises to 6 BB, fold, fold, Hero calls 5 BB, UTG calls 4 BB

Flop: (18.4 BB, 3 players) T 6 7
Hero checks, UTG checks, CO bets 13.16 BB, fold, fold

CO wins 17.56 BB

PokerStars - $0.25 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 558.92 BB (VPIP: 25.25, PFR: 16.84, 3Bet Preflop: 8.93, Hands: 304)
Hero (SB): 115.2 BB
BB: 189.48 BB (VPIP: 23.16, PFR: 18.95, 3Bet Preflop: 11.11, Hands: 96)
UTG: 79.68 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 5)
MP: 117.24 BB (VPIP: 23.57, PFR: 17.20, 3Bet Preflop: 3.17, Hands: 159)
CO: 119.04 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)

Hero posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has J J

fold, MP raises to 3 BB, CO raises to 10.4 BB, fold, fold, fold, MP raises to 22.4 BB, CO calls 12 BB

Flop: (46.2 BB, 2 players) Q 8 2
MP bets 25.2 BB, CO calls 25.2 BB

Turn: (96.6 BB, 2 players) 3
MP checks, CO checks

River: (96.6 BB, 2 players) 4
MP bets 69.64 BB and is all-in, CO calls 69.64 BB

Spoiler:
MP shows K K (One Pair, Kings)
(Pre 72%, Flop 80%, Turn 88%)
CO shows A Q (One Pair, Queens)
(Pre 28%, Flop 20%, Turn 12%)
MP wins 227.88 BB


PokerStars - $0.25 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 241.76 BB (VPIP: 18.18, PFR: 9.09, 3Bet Preflop: 5.88, Hands: 35)
SB: 221.32 BB (VPIP: 22.55, PFR: 18.63, 3Bet Preflop: 6.52, Hands: 105)
Hero (BB): 179.8 BB
UTG: 58.84 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 3)
MP: 290.24 BB (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 16.00, 3Bet Preflop: 11.11, Hands: 26)
CO: 118.24 BB (VPIP: 22.91, PFR: 17.32, 3Bet Preflop: 5.33, Hands: 180)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has J J

UTG raises to 3 BB, MP raises to 10 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, UTG raises to 58.84 BB and is all-in, MP calls 48.84 BB

Flop: (119.08 BB, 2 players) 2 3 2

Turn: (119.08 BB, 2 players) T

River: (119.08 BB, 2 players) 5
Players agreed to run it twice.

Flop #2: (119.08 BB, 2 players) 6 9 6

Turn #2: (119.08 BB, 2 players) 9

River #2: (119.08 BB, 2 players) J

UTG shows A K (One Pair, Twos)
Board #1 (Pre 47%, Flop 51%, Turn 33%)
(Flush, Ace High)
Board #2 (Pre 48%, Flop 49%, Turn 32%)

MP shows Q Q (Two Pair, Queens and Twos)
Board #1 (Pre 53%, Flop 49%, Turn 67%)
(Two Pair, Queens and Nines)
Board #2 (Pre 52%, Flop 51%, Turn 68%)

UTG wins 56.84 BB
MP wins 56.88 BB

PokerStars - $0.25 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 378.76 BB (VPIP: 24.07, PFR: 16.87, 3Bet Preflop: 6.29, Hands: 407)
SB: 307.48 BB (VPIP: 40.00, PFR: 13.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 16)
BB: 105.72 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 50.00, 3Bet Preflop: 50.00, Hands: 6)
UTG: 100 BB (VPIP: 23.82, PFR: 19.45, 3Bet Preflop: 3.94, Hands: 1,135)
MP: 100 BB (VPIP: 19.11, PFR: 15.90, 3Bet Preflop: 7.00, Hands: 669)
Hero (CO): 100.4 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has A K

UTG raises to 3 BB, fold, Hero raises to 9 BB, fold, fold, BB raises to 105.72 BB and is all-in, UTG calls 97 BB and is all-in, fold

Flop: (209.4 BB, 2 players) 4 6 5

Turn: (209.4 BB, 2 players) A

River: (209.4 BB, 2 players) 2

Spoiler:
BB shows J J (One Pair, Jacks)
(Pre 21%, Flop 12%, Turn 5%)
UTG shows K K (One Pair, Kings)
(Pre 79%, Flop 88%, Turn 95%)
UTG wins 201.4 BB


From the hands I found out on NL25, half of them were good folds and the other half I was facing flips/tough multiway spots. You should make a lot of tighter folds, specially vs nits and even more vs their UTG ranges/dynamics.
Every single one of these hands has at least two other villains thus nullifying any of your point. I realize you like showing off hands but jfc dude. None of these hands are relevant to what anyone was talking about wrt folding AQ in bb or blind play.
Loosing too much from the blinds Quote
03-26-2017 , 12:50 PM
AF is ratio of aggro moves (bet, raise) to passive (call). Somewhere round 2.5 is average. Personaly not using it.
Also note that high AF does not necessary means player is overbluffing, when player acts tight pre he can have higher AF just because he has strong range otf. A player with high folding range can have higher AF just because he has fewer passive moves (calls).
Imo better stats are cbf, Fold2cb etc.
Loosing too much from the blinds Quote
03-26-2017 , 12:52 PM
AF isn't a great stat. It's only useful if it's really high or low. I prefer Agg% for each street. It's more useful because it counts how often someone checks
Loosing too much from the blinds Quote
03-26-2017 , 12:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shamway99
AF is ratio of aggro moves (bet, raise) to passive (call). Somewhere round 2.5 is average. Personaly not using it.
Also note that high AF does not necessary means player is overbluffing, when player acts tight pre he can have higher AF just because he has strong range otf. A player with high folding range can have higher AF just because he has fewer passive moves (calls).
Imo better stats are cbf, Fold2cb etc.
Yes I see, alright thank you for all you're contribution much appreciated. Same goes to all the other posters in this thread.
Loosing too much from the blinds Quote
03-26-2017 , 03:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by .isolated
Every single one of these hands has at least two other villains thus nullifying any of your point. I realize you like showing off hands but jfc dude. None of these hands are relevant to what anyone was talking about wrt folding AQ in bb or blind play.
Rapidesh123 is the hero we deserve but not the one we need.
Loosing too much from the blinds Quote
03-26-2017 , 03:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rapidesh123
folding AQ vs some villains is fine, if a 14 VPIP nit(in 6-max) raises from UTG to 3x and you're in the BB, do you call?
This is where RFI can be very useful, because a 14vpip is likely to be a much more concrete range across positions i.e. they can open that 14% UTG and not be making a mistake, whereas a looser villain may be opening a 1/3 of their BTN range compared to UTG.

And then, yeah, still call anyway. Essentially for all the reasons we call any hand in the blind. Even against a nit, AQ is good enough given pot odds and post-flop playability.
Loosing too much from the blinds Quote
03-26-2017 , 04:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSA Stephen
Rapidesh123 is the hero we deserve but not the one we need.
Loosing too much from the blinds Quote
03-26-2017 , 06:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puma1
I took this stats from pokertracker 4 "Leak tracker" section under Att to steal it says: "Percentage of time that a player opened the pot by raising in the cutoff or on the button"

What 3 bet% should I be aiming at roughly from the BB? My 3 bet range from blinds vs BTN open is rougly AQo+/TT+ and A2s-A9s around 30% of the time ATo,AJo,KJo,KQo and KTs+ JTs+ around 50% of the time. I honestly don't have a defined range what i wrote above is what I gathered from memory % are not completely accurate, I just do it when I see someone opening a lot or having a big fold to 3 bet %.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puma1
Litteraly double? I am not too well versed post flop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rapidesh123
Is it an optimal range pre to RFI 40% of hands in the SB vs a competent opponent or are you considering those guys that almost never defend their blinds?
More, and yeah.

3b BB vs BTN should be like 10-17%

3b more vs larger sizings and higher RFIs
Loosing too much from the blinds Quote
03-26-2017 , 07:00 PM
I fold aq vs nits and most regs in 6 max. Flame away. I think its bad to call it. Maybe AQss is a call.

You aren't getting exploited vs their opening range, so from a frequency perspective we really are just looking for value hands. The only reason I think calling could be OK is that we are losing less money than folding preflop for 100bb/100 hands. I still think this argument is weak so I fold.

Also my defend preflop is something like 40-50%. So you could go quite a bit looser preflop with your defending range, but you should start thinking about how to play postflop in blinds vs button/co situations if you're going to do that. You'll be in this situation frequently.
Loosing too much from the blinds Quote
03-26-2017 , 07:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brokenstars
More, and yeah.

3b BB vs BTN should be like 10-17%

3b more vs larger sizings and higher RFIs
This versus a 2bb open or 3bb open? I think the open size makes a huge difference for what our optimal strategy should be in 3betting.
Loosing too much from the blinds Quote
03-26-2017 , 08:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Check_The_Nuts
This versus a 2bb open or 3bb open? I think the open size makes a huge difference for what our optimal strategy should be in 3betting.
Hence the range in 3bing %
Loosing too much from the blinds Quote

      
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