His passive play pre and flop felt very weak to me, mostly I put him to AK, flush draw, 10s and Js and did not want to give him a free river card.

Is a check on turn to induce river bluff a better line?

PokerStars - $0.50 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 184.3 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 3)
SB: 115.86 BB (VPIP: 37.50, PFR: 37.50, 3Bet Preflop: 25.00, Hands: 8)
BB: 280 BB (VPIP: 32.16, PFR: 24.56, 3Bet Preflop: 6.85, Hands: 179)
UTG: 170.74 BB (VPIP: 23.04, PFR: 17.70, 3Bet Preflop: 8.30, Hands: 616)
MP: 139.52 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 8.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 24)
Hero (CO): 130.78 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J J

fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, BTN calls 3 BB, fold, BB raises to 13 BB, Hero raises to 33 BB, fold, BB calls 20 BB

Flop: (69.5 BB, 2 players) 2 9 Q
BB checks, Hero bets 24 BB, BB calls 24 BB

Turn: (117.5 BB, 2 players) 7
BB checks, Hero bets 73.78 BB and is all-in, fold

Hero wins 113.5 BB

do not see turn shoving being good

me neither

Turn shove? Check flop, check/call turn. Check/fold or check/call river, if he dint bet turn.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

this hand is a pretty good example of why 4betting with jacks is a bad idea

lol

Can you elaborate? In this specific situation, I prefer to not call being sandwitched and not last to act. 4betting here with the intention of folding to his shove and play in position in *rare* case it's called.

Also, it's a late position squeeze from BB and his stat even though not many, seems pretty laggy so I think there's nothing wrong with 4betting with Js. If I had larger sample or history of him being a tight squeezer then I might have considered folding.

pre-flop is bad, flop is bad, turn is horrible. Trainwreck of a hand.

Would you recommend folding 100% with JJ in this hand?

I recommend flatting the 3bet.

As played you are essentially turning a value hand (JJ) into a bluff.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

He's certainly not talking about folding preflop because that is awful and he's not awful.

I think by shoving turn we are only folding hands that we beat. I think i like a flat pre tho.

Yes. Problem is you still have alot of equity with JJ and I am not sure you are folding enough hands for this to be +EV.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Oh and we are folding alot of hands that we beat (more) than hands that we don't beat.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

yeah flatting the 3bet pre and playing in position is the correct play. BTN is not going to backshove very often

I don't get it, 4-betting jacks there just take out villain's bluffs and we keep only the strongest part of his range vs us, it's not like villain will have a lot of 5-bet-bluff shove ranges 140bb deep in there or will be stacking off with TT.

In more aggressive dynamics, you can easily 4-bet/call there, but vs someone who isn't out of the line(and you aren't neither), then flatting pre is good, you keep a lot of villain's bluffs, will play a 3-bet pot IP deep stacked and can own your opponent

As played, I prefer checking OTF, if you bet, it won't be called by worse enough of the time, also by checking the flop, you induce bluffs, and it's not that you need to deny his equity from Ax and charge some gutshots OTF, they won't catch up a lot of the time.

Then OTT, if checked to, you can bet for value, you underrepresented your hand OTF, villains will rarely check again a hand that beats you(unless it's some Q3s crap, if he 3-bets that). Then you can check some rivers, valuebet other ones if you think villain is capable of calling a second bet with 9x/TT

Also by betting your midpairs OTF, your checking behind range will be filled with a lot of crap, villain can bet his entire air range after you check OTF and profit from it. That's something I see a lot of people doing in the micros: transforming good SDV hands into bluffs.

i see his preflop range being made up of some slow played AA/KK/QQ, some suited connectors, maybe some suited broadway hands + the odd AxKx/AxQx hand.

the top of his postflop c/c range should be AhAx/KhKx, all connecting xHxH's, and hands such as KhQh/KJhh and obviously sets like QQ. He shouldn't ever really have any other sets given preflop action. He doesn't really need any part of his range to be raising with this deep (even QQ should c/c here)

there is a small chance he has a hand like (no hearts) 97 suited, 98 suited etc which might c/c one street and then shut down on most turns. (unless of course he makes 2 pair)

we also block the weakest part of his c/c range (no hearts) J9 suited and J10 suited.

i think overall i prefer a turn check and allowing the bb to have a stab at blank rivers. Problem by betting is we are never getting called by worse, he can quite easily show up with hands which have us crushed equity wise. I think we might even fold out some KxQx/AxQx hands which might be ok if our intention was to be bluffing with JJ.

It seems as though you are betting to protect equity right?

i'm pretty sure that poster was agreeing with me. 4betting jacks is bad for exactly the reason you mention in the first paragraph. we fold out his bluffs and we're crushed when he 5bets us.

i do think including JJ in your flatting range (in position) vs this type of player and then 4 betting a weaker part of our opening range, like A6+, K9+ (we block AA/KK, AK/AQ) would be a better overall strategy

slow play some AA, but overall i'd be 4betting QQ+ and AK pretty much always with a constructed range (as above) from the weaker hands we have from an open.

flat 3 bet the first time. You can 4bet gii JJ like button versus blinds versus some opponents, but once you GET FLATTED and board is Q high and he puts a single bet there I think we are out. Ofcourse you can sometimes call one small bet in a 4bet pot on Q high with JJ being ip, but generally you are never good. Especially on Q9x where we block tonns of his weaker peeling hands that can stab there (JTs/KJs).

Your hand seems overplayed to me.

4bet call pre 100bb deep woul be fine, would call pre though 130bb deep.