How to deal with CO/Button attempt to steals - Beginning Poker Questions

Over the course of moving up the NL ladder, I am having difficulty against villains that have a 45+ attempt to steal from Late position. I've been 3betting them fairly wide but the more observant villains will be able to adjust and start opening wider with 4b, which essentially gets us back to square one (him raising and me put to a decision oop)...just with a bloated pot.

The three options obviously:
1) Fold, but folding my sb/bb every rotation sucks...I feel I will lose a lot in the long run by just folding.

2) Just call, but then that separates my vpip/pfr and also I am putting in more money to play a pot OOP on a flop that my hand will mathematically not connect with and villain's aggression will take it down or put me in a difficult spot later on (unless I hit big), having to hope my cards hit and villains doesn't feel like winning poker.

Calling with only high equity hands such as JTs+, any pairs, AXs and mixing 3bets from that range may be an option. This still seems to be incorrect since we know villain is opening super wide and only playing the top 18%'ish feels super nitty and losing a lot of value.

3) Raise warrrrrr, which I hate and I feel this is probably effective at the higher stakes but will be hard for me to implement effectively at 25NL.

An important factor is their Cbet F, T, R of course, but most of the time (I'd guess more then 80% of the time) if villain is aggro at stealing preflop, then he will be also aggressively cbetting one maybe two barrels.

How do I deal with this, other then hoping to hit a big top pair and then hold on for deal life (which is what I've been doing) or 3betting practically any two cards when I see their Attempt to steal stat is over 55+.

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05-30-2017 , 12:05 AM

Sil3ntness

old hand

Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 1,304

Quote:

Originally Posted by AznblackhawkCo

You have options of:

1) Calling tighter
2) Build/Balance your 3B resteal range vs BU/CO opens
3) Build your 4B call range vs BU/CO
4) Getting it in with 5B allin
5) Fold.

If you are playing on WPN, it's going to get very reg heavy at 50 NL and higher. Start studying with CREV, PioSolver, etc. to find balance.

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05-30-2017 , 02:27 AM

Gunblade

grinder

Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 447

There's no shame in folding if you feel every other option is detrimental to your stack.

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05-30-2017 , 03:34 AM

spoggos

newbie

Join Date: May 2015 Posts: 35

What Sil3ntess said sounds pretty right to me. You should work away from the tables on building 3betting ranges against someone opening 45+ from the CO or BU, which means you should also consider how that will affect your gameplay - what will your range and his range look like when you 3b him and he flats you, or when you get 4bet - how will you react when he 4bets you? , what hands (if any) will you 3b/fold, 3b/call, 3b/raise? You should try to formulate a game plan specifically for these spots

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05-30-2017 , 04:25 AM

Fatboy54

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Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 3,876

Quote:

I've been 3betting them fairly wide but the more observant villains will be able to adjust and start opening wider with 4b, which essentially gets us back to square one (him raising and me put to a decision oop)...just with a bloated pot.

I'm afraid your whole thinking is flawed as is some of the advice above.

If all the villain is doing is adjusting his RFI bet size, and not his range, there is absolutely no need for you to make any range adjustments, let alone start re-thinking your strategy. All you need to do is adjust your three bet size accordingly.

credit Carroteers

Increasing your preflop bet size is not the best way to deal with an aggressive 3-bettor, so your "observant villains" are probably fishy poor regs.

Obviously (hopefully!) if you think villain is adjusting range, then you have to adjust range too...but just bet size, nope, not required.

Last edited by Fatboy54; 05-30-2017 at 04:30 AM.

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05-30-2017 , 07:05 AM

AznblackhawkCo

journeyman

Join Date: Oct 2015 Posts: 306

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatboy54

I think you misread or maybe I did, when I mentioned villains were raising wider, I meant their 3b call/4b range not sizing. Villains open usually remains the same 2.5x-3x (standard) but when I 3b (sizing is again standard) I've noticed villains giving me some credit...IE fold 3, 4, even 5 times but I noticed my 3b stat starts to get higher and higher (around 30-40%+) which is way to obvious and exploitable, much like the attempt to steals being 55%+, a few villains have been small'ish 4 betting. I know more will follow if they have half a brain and I will need to figure out something else, especially when the 25NL regs start to get more hand history with me.

I've always found software on postflop ranges somewhat confusing, but advice up top is definitely a good direction, since if I want to start taking poker seriously I have to do some work off the felt.

PS - cool chart, but what does (SQ) mean, and it doesn't take into account additional limpers or people yet to act in the blinds that might be enticed into calling...maybe that's just a simplified chart?

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05-30-2017 , 10:54 AM

Fatboy54

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Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 3,876

My bad. You said 4b, I read 4bb and dived in. Apologies to you and other posters who obviously read it correctly.

SQ = squeeze.

If you had a limper behind, you'd be squeezing by default, so that is covered. It's not anything to do with range, just sizing depending on villain RFI size.

I don't think you would altering your 3bet size just because you had villains still to act behind. You would be (considering) adjusting both your range and your strat of course.

Going back to your original question (I play 25nlz) there is an exploitable population gap between 3bet sizes (very wide) and 4bet sizes (very strong) at ps zoom 25nl (and probably at least zoom 50nl). You can exploit that by

Folding all but monsters to villain 4bets
Hero 4bet bluffing (I do it with blockers) at wide 3bet ranges.
Only 5betting linear (no 5 bet bluffing).

This is zoom advice specifically, I doubt it will hold good for reg speed as I would expect decent regs to adjust far quicker.

The best advice I could give for reg spd, if you have a decent aggro adjusting 3betting/4betting reg behind you...move table.

Last edited by Fatboy54; 05-30-2017 at 11:05 AM.

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05-30-2017 , 11:27 AM

Fatboy54

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 3,876

Should have added (coz I already messed up

) I'm talking 100bb stacks.

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05-30-2017 , 03:22 PM

Brokenstars

Verified Coach NLHE

Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 16,105

For a certain RFI and sizing their exists a number of hands in which you can profitably defend the BB in equilibrium. Of these hands exists a portion of which where 3bing is greater EV than calling.

What range are you defending vs these guys? Specify an RFI and open sizing and we can probably help you. Otherwise if it isn't far off then you're probably just having more trouble on flops.

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05-30-2017 , 03:40 PM

#10

AznblackhawkCo

journeyman

Join Date: Oct 2015 Posts: 306

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brokenstars

The factors in finding a balance would be cbet, AFq, AS from LP? Anything else I should be looking at when deciding ?

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05-30-2017 , 03:56 PM

#11

ArtyMcFly

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 13,256

Quote:

Originally Posted by AznblackhawkCo

2) Just call, but then that separates my vpip/pfr and also I am putting in more money to play a pot OOP

You're supposed to flat call a LOT in the BB (which is why the gap between VPIP and PFR is sometimes quite high for advanced players), because you get good pot odds and can close the action. If villain opens for 2.5x, for example, you only need to voluntarily contribute 1.5bb to the pot (which will be 5.5bb on the flop). If you can win back more than the amount you contribute, you're doing better than folding pre.
1.5bb/5.5bb => you only need to win 27.2% of the time to break even, which means you're 'allowed' to check-fold at a high frequency if you flop no equity. It only cost you 1.5bb to see the flop, and you'll have some hands that make much more than that.
Vs a 3x open, you should call a fair bit tighter, since it will be harder to recoup 2bb per hand with a wider/weaker range.
Alongside calling with a lot of "decent, but not brilliant" hands, if you 3-bet something in the region of 10-12% (big pairs, suited aces, suited Broadways), villain won't be able to exploit you and might stop trying to steal so often.

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06-01-2017 , 03:13 AM

#12

Fatboy54

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Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 3,876

Since I stuffed up my last post...

credit Carroters

This is an example polar BB range versus an overfolding BTN reg. Notice how it corresponds to what Arty said, albeit I would bet Arty would be 3betting a little more of this range, as would I. Bear in mind though, the more of your range you 3bet value, the more 3bet bluffs you need, driving up your total 3bet freq. This in turn will increase villains 4bet freq, so you are looking for your own sweet spot. As I mentioned earlier @25nlz I overfold to 4bets, based on population knowledge (except perhaps SB V BB).

Last edited by Fatboy54; 06-01-2017 at 03:23 AM.

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06-01-2017 , 03:50 AM

#13

Kelvis

banned

Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 8,737

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatboy54

Since I stuffed up my last post...

How come you have a 2:1 bluff ratio and quite polarized when you are out of position and can expect to get called pretty often? I mean I get that you want some strong hands so your flatting range isn't too weak but now your 3bet range is kind of mashed potatoes.

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06-01-2017 , 06:36 AM

#14

Fatboy54

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Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 3,876

^^ It's not my range - it's straight out The Grinder's Manual (hence the citation) and it's only an example.

You might have missed this bit

Quote:

versus an overfolding BTN reg

It's meant to be bluff heavy, villain is overfolding (high converged F3B), but yeah I agree and I would rarely 3bet bluff this much as you rarely have a converged F3B in Zoom.

Quote:

3bet range is kind of mashed potatoes

.

Made I chuckle

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06-01-2017 , 11:52 AM

#15

Fatboy54

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 3,876

If anybody is interested here are the notes from Carroters for the above chart. [The Grinder's Manual, Peter Clarke, 2016].

Note Mods, I believe it is OK to post extracts from a source, provided it is correctly sited?? If I'm offending any rule by posting this, apologies and please take it down.

it's a wall of text so I put it in a sp for for those that don't care.

Spoiler:

Villain RFI BTN 61% FT3B 67% 2bb btn raise.

3-Bet Value: The plan is to 3-bet a moderate range of value hands. If Villain is opening 60% of hands and continuing 33% of this 60%, then we can expect him to continue to Hero's 3-bet with around 20% of all possible starting hands. Against this range Hero is doing very well and even with the worst hands in his range like KQs he has 51% equity. In fact, when Villain merely flats the 3-bet, he is unlikely to have
[QQ+ AK] and Hero's equity with KQs jumps up to 54%. Hero may want to fold hands like KQs, AJs and AQo to a 4-bet depending on what he knows about Villain's 4-bet
tendencies. If Villain has a propensity to 4-bet bluff though then shoving this whole green range should be fine as these hands have good blockers and okay equity when called.

Call: Hero is in a favourable situation for flatting since his price is so good and he's closing the action and so the hands in blue should be higher EV to call than they are to fold. In other words, they lose less than 1BB on average from the point of view of the whole hand if Hero calls them.

3-Bet Bluff: Hero's ratio of bluffs to value is now 124:70 or 1.77:1 which is a very reasonable exploitative adjustment. I've seen players argue for bluffing ranges that are 3 or 4 times the size of the value range in this spot and I think it's a categorical long-term mistake vs. most Regs. There are of course Villains that play 24 tables and are so unaware, nitty or automated that they just won't adjust even to extreme bluff to value ratios like 3:1 and 4:1. Most players in 2016 however, will be aware enough to quickly start flatting and 4-betting more, opening less and generally re-exploiting such a strategy. The hands in red are again chosen as the best of Hero's would be folding range in terms of playability, board coverage and blockers.
Against anyone who folds more than this, Hero's bluff to value ratio in the polar model increases further. I've come across many a Villain who opens wide, folds to 80% of 3bets and never seems to want to fight back. Against this player type Hero should adopt a much more unbalanced ratio. Just don't go 3betting 75o as long term EV will usually come back to bite you.

Last edited by Fatboy54; 06-01-2017 at 11:59 AM.

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06-02-2017 , 08:02 AM

#16

ArtyMcFly

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Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 13,256

I'm in a hurry, so will respond later, but in terms of optimal/GTO play, I think Carroters' chart is lolbad.

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06-02-2017 , 12:45 PM

#17

ArtyMcFly

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Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 13,256

I think a stronger theoretical defence for the BB facing a 2.5x open by the BTN has a more linear 3-betting range, leading to an overall strategy something like this:

Total playable range: 44.6%

CALL (blue): 32.9%

3-bet freq: 11.7%, comprised of:
3b/stack off (green): 2.1%
3b/flat a small 4-bet (pink): 2.9%
3b/fold (yellow): 6.7%

Clearly you can alter the strategy to exploit an opponent. Adjustments could include moving the pink hands into the stack off or 3b/folding ranges, or using more Kx and suited connectors as bluffs if villain folds "too often". Vs a nittier opener, you can/should also fold a lot more hands and just dump the worst blue hands (J4s, 32s, 52s, 87o, Q9o, A6o etc).

Note that facing a 3x open, the strategy would change significantly, as a lot of the offsuit aces and worst offsuit and suited hands become folds, and you should be more inclined to flat with hands like 99/88, AQo, A9s, A8s, as villain's opening range and continuance ranges are stronger (he doesn't flat the 3-bet with as many dominated hands).

EDIT: I should probably have put 85s into the flatting range in preference to 52s. There are a lot of debatable hands at the bottom of the calling range. e.g. It might be argued that A2o or T8o are slightly better than J4s.

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06-02-2017 , 06:17 PM

#18

Fatboy54

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Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 3,876

^^ Cool chart...I'll check this off against my own ranges, cheers!

I got a question though. Why are reaching for a "optimal/GTO" solution in what is clearly a very exploitable spot?????

Even Janda (who lets face it, has an agenda) clearly states that GTO in exploitable situations is -EV.

Seriously, I'm confused

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06-03-2017 , 03:01 AM

#19

Sil3ntness

old hand

Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 1,304

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatboy54

My bad. You said 4b, I read 4bb and dived in. Apologies to you and other posters who obviously read it correctly.

SQ = squeeze.

If you had a limper behind, you'd be squeezing by default, so that is covered. It's not anything to do with range, just sizing depending on villain RFI size.

I don't think you would altering your 3bet size just because you had villains still to act behind. You would be (considering) adjusting both your range and your strat of course.

Going back to your original question (I play 25nlz) there is an exploitable population gap between 3bet sizes (very wide) and 4bet sizes (very strong) at ps zoom 25nl (and probably at least zoom 50nl). You can exploit that by

Folding all but monsters to villain 4bets
Hero 4bet bluffing (I do it with blockers) at wide 3bet ranges.
Only 5betting linear (no 5 bet bluffing).

This is zoom advice specifically, I doubt it will hold good for reg speed as I would expect decent regs to adjust far quicker.

The best advice I could give for reg spd, if you have a decent aggro adjusting 3betting/4betting reg behind you...move table.

LOL that's the biggest problem. Winning Poker Network is so damn reg heavy that moving tables is pretty much futile. You're going to have to do some serious bum hunting to find a decent table.
---
I'm not going to talk about my 3 betting ranges because I play with the same screen name. All I know is that you have to adjust your range accordingly. It seems obvious, but 3 bet ranges are going to be different versus a nit and a complete loose maniac.

Last edited by Sil3ntness; 06-03-2017 at 03:10 AM.

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06-03-2017 , 12:03 PM

#20

ArtyMcFly

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Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 13,256

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatboy54

I got a question though. Why are reaching for a "optimal/GTO" solution in what is clearly a very exploitable spot?????

I don't have the skills to work out (or memorize) an individual exploitative strategy for each player in the pool, but I can memorize a strategy that will beat the pool as a whole, and rarely put me into trouble spots or leveling wars. (e.g. "Oh he's 4-bet me. I wonder if that's because he saw me 3-bet K3s. Maybe I should 5-bet bluff him. Oh ****, he's got aces.")
Tbh, I don't think there is a great amount of scope for deviating much from whatever's optimal, because edges are so small and most opponents are not completely insane. i.e. You might be the best post-flop player in the world, but it doesn't mean you can play 35-40% of hands profitably because everyone is so "exploitable". Unless you're up against a bunch of jellyfish, you can probably only get away with widening your overall VPIP (or increasing your 3-bet frequency) by a couple of percentage points, because once you get 'out of line' yourself, you're not just opening yourself up to exploitation; you're gonna lose even if your opponents are merely "normal".

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06-04-2017 , 08:08 PM

#21

Fatboy54

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 3,876

No disrespect Arty because I well understand your grasp of poker theory well exceeds mine, but I think your whole post above is biased towards anonymous hud-less poker and as such your comments about Carroters ranges in specific spot are, well, out of order, because he details (as I did) the reasons for deploying an exploitative range.

Unless I am misreading your post, you're suggesting playing the same range against a villain who is say ATS 60% FT3B 70% and another villain who is ATS 30% FT3B 25%...and that is just not right.

That's got nothing to do with memory, or leveling, just the ability to read a hud and understand stat convergence.

Incidentally, I checked my range folder - your 3bet ranges, and follow on actions, are virtually identical to my default, non-adjusted ranges, which are heavily based on Carroters default ranges. So this discussion is not whose ranges are best, but when and why we shift to an exploitative strategy.

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06-05-2017 , 01:34 PM

#22

ArtyMcFly

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Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 13,256

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatboy54

Unless I am misreading your post, you're suggesting playing the same range against a villain who is say ATS 60% FT3B 70% and another villain who is ATS 30% FT3B 25%...and that is just not right.

I wouldn't recommend playing exactly the same way against two well known players that are wildly out of line, but I think it's quite interesting that given the stats you provided, the continuance range of player one is 18% of all hands and the continuance range of player two is 22.5% of all hands, so they continue with fairly similar ranges, despite having wildly different opening strats. If you're 3-betting a (mostly linear) optimal range of around 12%, you're making money against both (one opens too wide but folds too often, the other opens too tight, but calls slightly too often) but it's important to note that both players continue with close to optimal ranges when facing the 3-bet. (OTB v BB, GTO continuance would be something like 22%).
This means that while you harness a ton of EV from fold equity vs player 1, so you could go 3-bet crazy against him, a wide 3-betting range would lack hand equity vs his tighter calling range. i.e. Much of the EV you win from his folds is lost when he calls, so why bother if it all evens out in the end?
My feeling is that "pre-flop exploitation" is overrated. I think you need your opponents to be much more 'out of line' before a highly exploitative pre-flop strat makes sense. In today's games, most players defend against 3-bets pretty well almost by accident. The days of people folding 80% of the time are gone. Everyone seems to be in the 40-70% range. (Similarly, it's becoming less true that you can open 60% of buttons or SBs, or iso-raise every limper and c-bet 100%, and expect to win. Thanks to the likes of Upswing, even newbies have fairly solid pre-flop strats.)

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06-06-2017 , 08:12 AM

#23

ToiletBowler

adept

Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 1,144

Arty that BB defend vs BTN 2.5x seems way too wide...
You're defending enough for both players! BTN should never bluff pre?

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06-06-2017 , 01:33 PM

#24

ArtyMcFly

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Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 13,256

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToiletBowler

Arty that BB defend vs BTN 2.5x seems way too wide...

It's needlessly loose/wide for microstakes, because the rake is so high, but I'm convinced that "GTO" defends extremely wide in lower rake environments (100NL+).
Maybe someone can show the default BB defending range supplied with Pio. My range is derived from what Snowie suggests. https://www.pokersnowie.com/pftapp/index.html