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Old 12-28-2011, 02:17 PM   #1
MSauce
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Exclamation ***Mass Sitout to Protest PokerStars 2012 Rake Changes***

Edit/MH: See Sitout Details Thread


* * *

To All,

I think almost every reg is now on board with how horrid these changes are for any high volume cash player on PokerStars. Most of us were astonished to not only see that no money was redistributed into the VIP program, but there was also a significant rake increase (5 handed) that was announced in a fashion to deceive players.

I think that we should plan a mass sit out on PokerStars for all limits like we've seen successfully done on Party, Pokerstars.fr, etc. It is important for the site to understand that we, the regulars who contribute the most to the site, don't appreciate being deceived or the rake raised on us simply because they feel they are the monopoly in the online poker world.

I am going to be in the US till January 2nd so I will not be able to participate but I figured we should try to get this done asap.

I say we plan this for January 1st at 12PM EST. Thoughts?

*

Edit/MH: See
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSauce View Post
I've decided with how fast this thread is evolving updating OP is a hopeless task. I'd have to update it every hour to keep it relevant. I'm just going to continue the discussion here.

The date/time is STILL Jan 1st at 12pm EST and the sitout should continue indefinitely until we see USEFUL changes.
*

Edit/MH: See
Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerStars Steve View Post
Thank you all for taking the time to express your opinion about the recently announced changes to ring game rake on PokerStars.com for 2012.

As a direct result of player input, we are cancelling the planned rake changes that were to be implemented in early January 2012. We will still use the incremental method to calculate rake instead of true percentage rake. Rake caps and percentages will remain exactly as they are today.

I would like to add a few comments:

The current rake at PokerStars is the lowest by far among all major poker sites.

We are confident that the planned rake changes would have resulted in a further overall decrease in ring game rake site wide, and a decrease for a majority of players.

There has been much inaccurate information spread about the impact of the changes. As an example, the changes would not have resulted in a 50% increase in rake for 5-handed play. While there would have been an increase in average rake for 5-handed play at NL tables with stakes of $0.25/$0.50 and higher, it would be far less than 50% (for stakes up to $0.10/$0.25 there was either no change or reduction in caps for 5-handed play). Most hands do not reach the cap and thus would not be affected. The rake for many hands dealt to 5 players would actually be lower at many stakes due to the lower rake percentage (4.5% reduced from 5%). If players review rake at other online poker rooms, they will discover that it is the standard for the rake caps to be the same when 5 or more players are dealt into a hand. PokerStars has been the one notable exception to this system.

In summary we still believe that the proposed rake system taken as a whole would result in a more balanced and fair rake system for players. However, given that players have responded so negatively to this change, which also has a cost to PokerStars due to the reduced rake, we felt that the best course of action is to cancel the change.

The change to the Weighted Contributed method of awarding VPPs will remain as announced.
*

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMetetrown View Post
I still stand behind this as what a fair outcome for all is and it seems others agree with me.

1. Rake caps of $.50/$1/$1.5/$2/$3 for 2/3/4/5/6+ handed play
2. 4.5% linear rake up to the cap

PLUS ONE OF THE FOLLOWING TWO OPTIONS

3a. Winner take all rake calculation method
4a. 6x VPP across the board

OR

3b. WC rake calculation method
4b. 6.5x VPP across the board


I don't understand the Fixed Limit situation enough to say how much more they are getting screwed, but either lowering the rake a touch to 4% for FL or letting them keep their current incremental system seems fair if they really are getting hurt by 4.5% linear rake.

Stars makes more in this system, high volume players aren't getting too screwed. This outcome is sustainable. Everyone is happy. It's not everything we want, but it is a fair, reasonable solution.

Quote +1 to let Stars know what we want!
*

Edit/MH: See
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSauce View Post
Also, with this type of movement, its the little things that go a long way. If everyone involved could change their 2p2 location to "Sitting out @ PokerStars Jan 1st" that would help build awareness in other locations of 2p2 where this topic isnt as hot.
*

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrtrebus View Post
Just to illustrat the point that stars would be pocketing extra cash on this:

A supernova elite who would have earned 1 million vpps under the old system and takes a 20% hit to vpps, now only earns 800,000 vpps.

He misses out on his $20k milestone bonus and because of his 5x vpp multiplier now earns 1 million less fpps worth $16,000. He also doesn't earn his $5,200 wcoop seat

Overall $41,200 less than the previous year

Those 200,000 vpps will be distributed mainly to losing/very loose players. Probably mainly bronze, silver and gold star, in that order.

Even if we use the vpp multiplier of a goldstar, 2x, these fpps are only worth a maximum of $4,800 to the players they go to, in reality these fpps vpps will be going to bronze stars and silver stars too, many less fpps will be earned and they will be cashed in at much lower rate.

The highest amount these vpps are likely to earn in milestones for players is $2,400 (this is how much all the milestones/stellar rewards up to supernova are worth.) Again in reality, these vpps will be distributed amongst a large number of players, who will earn an extra $5 or $10 stellar reward, if that.

So with the change to wc, a sne would have $41,200 knocked off his rewards with a maximum of $7,200 been distributed back to other players. With pokerstars pocketing the extra $34,000+

Last edited by Mike Haven; 12-30-2011 at 11:06 AM.
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Old 12-28-2011, 02:19 PM   #2
badbeatLOL
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Re: ***Mass Sitout to Protest Stars 2012 Rake Changes***

im in

will block 24 fl-sh tables
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Old 12-28-2011, 02:19 PM   #3
DonkDonkDonkDonk
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Re: ***Mass Sitout to Protest Stars 2012 Rake Changes***

Down for whenever



Say the word, say the mother****ing word
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Old 12-28-2011, 02:20 PM   #4
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Re: ***Mass Sitout to Protest Stars 2012 Rake Changes***

why r u waiting nearly 10 days to do this, lets do it asap, lol
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Old 12-28-2011, 02:20 PM   #5
checkraise1
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Re: ***Mass Sitout to Protest Stars 2012 Rake Changes***

IN obv, 24 tables of 6max CAP 2/4 - 5/10
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Old 12-28-2011, 02:20 PM   #6
jspill
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Re: ***Mass Sitout to Protest Stars 2012 Rake Changes***

in

Last edited by jspill; 12-28-2011 at 02:26 PM. Reason: fu stars
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Old 12-28-2011, 02:21 PM   #7
pureklas
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Re: ***Mass Sitout to Protest Stars 2012 Rake Changes***

Quote:
Originally Posted by tercet View Post
why r u waiting nearly 10 days to do this, lets do it asap, lol
Why are you waiting 10 days & at a time most Euros will be in bed.
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Old 12-28-2011, 02:21 PM   #8
MSauce
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Re: ***Mass Sitout to Protest Stars 2012 Rake Changes***

I'd be down to move it up to whenever, I just wont be able to participate Thoughts on more effective date/time?

Jan 1st at 12pm EST?

Last edited by MSauce; 12-28-2011 at 02:22 PM. Reason: fixed OP
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Old 12-28-2011, 02:21 PM   #9
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Re: ***Mass Sitout to Protest Stars 2012 Rake Changes***

in
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Old 12-28-2011, 02:22 PM   #10
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Re: ***Mass Sitout to Protest Stars 2012 Rake Changes***

we cant do it this year because that would hurt our fellow grinders who try/struggle to get their last milestone in
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Old 12-28-2011, 02:22 PM   #11
Stanko
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Re: ***Mass Sitout to Protest Stars 2012 Rake Changes***

IM IN
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Old 12-28-2011, 02:22 PM   #12
HiLo66
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Re: ***Mass Sitout to Protest Stars 2012 Rake Changes***

I'm in too, just like it sooner as well.
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Old 12-28-2011, 02:23 PM   #13
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Re: ***Mass Sitout to Protest Stars 2012 Rake Changes***

Why Jan 5th? I say start Jan 1st, start ASAP **** this money grab. Their decision to increase rake on less than 6handed games is most retarded thing ever implemented, there will be less tables started so less rake for Pokerstars.

Also EVERYBODY should e-mail Stars your disgust at the changes.
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Old 12-28-2011, 02:23 PM   #14
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Re: ***Mass Sitout to Protest Stars 2012 Rake Changes***

Count with me
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Old 12-28-2011, 02:23 PM   #15
MSauce
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Re: ***Mass Sitout to Protest Stars 2012 Rake Changes***

Quote:
Originally Posted by BennyQuack View Post
Why Jan 5th? I say start Jan 1st, start ASAP **** this money grab. Their decision to increase rake on less than 6handed games is most retarded thing ever implemented, there will be less tables started so less rake for Pokerstars.
updated OP.
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Old 12-28-2011, 02:24 PM   #16
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Re: ***Mass Sitout to Protest Stars 2012 Rake Changes***

1st time SNE (today) and 24 tables NL100 FR ...mass sit out? INNNN !!


p.s : FUUU STARS.
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Old 12-28-2011, 02:24 PM   #17
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Re: ***Mass Sitout to Protest Stars 2012 Rake Changes***

We must do it Jan 1st... I make my living with poker but I am willing to sitout for as long as it takes.

It is of critical importance that protest is for both rake change from dealt to wc and rake increase for 5 players(they increased cap for 50% !!! )
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Old 12-28-2011, 02:24 PM   #18
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Re: ***Mass Sitout to Protest Stars 2012 Rake Changes***

Ill do it, but i cant see stars taking a huge hit just because of how big the player pool is compared to the size of party's when it happened there.
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Old 12-28-2011, 02:25 PM   #19
MSauce
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Re: ***Mass Sitout to Protest Stars 2012 Rake Changes***

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marge147 View Post
Ill do it, but i cant see stars taking a huge hit just because of how big the player pool is compared to the size of party's when it happened there.
Well we can't know unless we try. and at least that way our voices will be heard by the community and people will see whats happening and draw attention to the issue.
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Old 12-28-2011, 02:26 PM   #20
Rorry666
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Re: ***Mass Sitout to Protest Stars 2012 Rake Changes***

Diiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiving in
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Old 12-28-2011, 02:28 PM   #21
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Re: ***Mass Sitout to Protest Stars 2012 Rake Changes***

I will participate in such an event.

My suggestion: Start it Dec. 30. (48 hours from now). 1 p.m. EST Dec. 30.

If people complain at the tables, POLITELY explain to them what is happening, and why you are doing what you are doing.

Do not engage in arguments at the table.

Keep 24 tables open, and spam waitlists as well.

Keep going for as long as you can, and if you need to stop, start again immediately when you get the chance.

This is a serious issue for six max players, and to FR players and SNG players, it could easily be you next. All poker players, regardless of stakes or game preference, need to work together on this.

So, who's up for December 28, 2011 at 1 p.m. EST?

If there's a better time, please don't hesitate to say so. I'm in for whatever we can do to let stars know that 50% rake increases are not okay.
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Old 12-28-2011, 02:28 PM   #22
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Re: ***Mass Sitout to Protest Stars 2012 Rake Changes***

I also think it's important to note that it will be no good for example to have a lot of people sit out on 24tables for 1hr on Jan 1st then when Stars take no action to just let it slide.

We will have to be prepared to do mass strikes day after day imo.
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Old 12-28-2011, 02:29 PM   #23
HiLo66
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Re: ***Mass Sitout to Protest Stars 2012 Rake Changes***

Ok so basically open up 24 Tables on Jan 1st at 12pm EST and sit out?
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Old 12-28-2011, 02:30 PM   #24
MSauce
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Re: ***Mass Sitout to Protest Stars 2012 Rake Changes***

We will have to do this for as long as possible but we can see how it evolves after it starts. The most important thing now is to plan when to start. I don't think we should do it this year because its mean to hurt our fellow regs who might be trying to get SNE at the last minute.
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Old 12-28-2011, 02:33 PM   #25
8Nilor
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Re: ***Mass Sitout to Protest Stars 2012 Rake Changes***

Quote:
Originally Posted by Budhud View Post
We must do it Jan 1st... I make my living with poker but I am willing to sitout for as long as it takes.

It is of critical importance that protest is for both rake change from dealt to wc and rake increase for 5 players(they increased cap for 50% !!! )
just play another site meanwhile
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