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Old 12-29-2011, 10:40 AM   #1
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Exclamation *** Mass Sitout - Pokerstars - Jan 1st - Details Thread ***

Note: Please do not reply to this thread or your post will be deleted by a moderator. If you have something to contribute, please use the original Mass Sitout thread HERE in order to discuss.

As the Mass Sitout thread is now getting quite long and continues to evolve rapidly, I am going to be posting here the cliffs and strategies for our protest as well as what we are attempting to accomplish in doing so.

As the mods on 2p2 have graciously agreed to let me start this thread in order to keep everything organized, they have asked that no one else reply to it or their posts will be deleted. Thanks again to them.

I will start with cliffs on what has happened so far:
Pokerstars Steve announced Ring Game Rake changes on December 28th, 2011 that are effective January 1st, 2012.
Link to the original post by Steve: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...58&postcount=1
Since then, all the physical rake amount and percentage changes we’re revoked in this post: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=654

Unfortunately, this was not the response we are looking for as players. The rake changes listed in the original post had some good parts to it including a decrease in fullring rake as well as rake at the micro limits. Our complaints about the rake percentage/cap changes were only the increase in cap at 5 handed play. These increases were substantial and would have had a negative affect primarily on shorthanded players above 25nl/plo.

Weighted Contributed vs. Dealt Method of Calculating VPPs

This is the main issue we are dealing with now since Stars has pulled the other changes already. To keep this brief, PokerStars is changing the method of awarding VPPs. The old system (Dealt) would take whatever the rake was for the hand and divide it by the number of players dealt into the hand. For instance, if 6 players were dealt into a hand that reached a $3 rake, each player would be awarded $0.50. That amount multiplied by the VPP multiplier (currently 6 for FR and 5.5 for shorthanded), would equal your amount of VPPs gained for that hand.

For Weighted Contributed, the distribution would be more like this:
Quote:
Under the new method, the VPPs will be awarded as follows:
• Player 1 contributed $6 (10% of the pot) and so receives 1.65 VPPs.
• Player 2 contributed $0 (0% of the pot) and so receives 0 VPPs.
• Player 3 contributed $0 (0% of the pot) and so receives 0 VPPs.
• Player 4 contributed $27 (45% of the pot) and so receives 7.43 VPPs.
• Player 5 contributed $27 (45% of the pot) and so receives 7.43 VPPs.
From http://www.pokerstars.com/sites/vpp-changes/.

The problem with this change is that a very large majority of the sites regulars (and also most loyal clients) will lose some percentage of their rakeback. The changes will affect everyone differently based on your vpip, avg amount of money you contribute to the pot, and other factors. The tighter players will be affected more than the looser players on the site however most regulars (Nits, TAGs, LAGs, and everything between) will see a decrease in rakeback for the 2012 year if the changes announced remain.

If you are interested in exactly how this will affect you please view GobletTamer’s post on how to view your rake changes using your database. I will say, that most reports, have been substantially lower (between 10-30% rakeback loss).

Although changing the way VPPs are awarded should in theory result in some players losing an amount, and other players gaining an equal amount, this is not the case in the WC system. Since the only players who will substantially increase the amount of VPPs made per hand will typically be recreational players (due to their very high vpips and high showdown %), these recreational players will not have a high enough VIP level to substantially increase their rakeback. They will be forced to use their FPPs inefficiently or will not receive certain milestones because of their lack of play.

This means that almost all the high volume regulars will lose money, the recreational players will gain very little, and stars will gain all the rest.

What are we doing about it?

As the biggest poker community on the net our opinions CERTAINLY deserve to be heard. We have already rallied together to start to create a protest against these changes. I have organized a Mass Sitout thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...anges-1145349/) in order to show Stars how serious we are about rejecting these proposed changes.

The plan with this protest is, starting on January 1st and 12PM EST, to sit out on 24 tables each while also informing players who may be unaware as to what is going on and why so many regulars are sitting out in the games. The best plan of attack is to start with 1 or 2 limits (I propose we start with 100nl and 200nl) and then make our way through the other limits and games as more and more people join in.

I will update this thread again when it is closer to the time to start sitting out in order to coordinate our effort and make sure our protest is very successful in sending a clear sign to the PokerStars Management.

Also, we encourage each and every one of you to send PokerStars support (support@pokerstars.com) an email and let them know (politely please; remember, the support staff are not the ones coming up with the changes) that you are unhappy with the current proposed changes and will protest the changes if they are not reconsidered.
We have also been tweeting to Daniel Negreanu (@realkidpoker) and PokerStars (@PokerStars) expressing our concerns. Earlier today we sent a prefilled tweet by the masses that said “@RealKidPoker please fight for the players @PokerStars and help mgmt see that the change to WC rake without any compensation is unfair!”

Unfortunately, both Stars and Daniel did not understand and responded with “To all those tweeting at me about the rake changes, the issue has been addressed in the forum” which is very, very, misinformed.

I have created a new prefilled tweet in order to tell both Daniel and Stars that they have NOT addressed the changes we have asked for and it can be sent HERE in order to respond to his incorrect reply.

Please also change your location to “Sitting out @ PokerStars on Jan 1st” to help spread awareness of this issue to other parts of the 2p2 message board that may not browse Internet Poker frequently.

What we are seeking:

As it says in the link inside of the prefilled tweet, the following are our proposed changes (I will update this as we get new suggestions)

(Originally posted by TheMetetrown)
1. Rake caps of $.50/$1/$1.5/$2/$3 for 2/3/4/5/6+ handed play
2. 4.5% linear rake up to the cap
3. The same proposed reductions for Rake at the micro limits.

PLUS ONE OF THE FOLLOWING TWO OPTIONS

3a. Winner take all rake calculation method
4a. 6x VPP across the board

OR

3b. WC rake calculation method
4b. 6.5x VPP across the board

Also, we still need someone who is a regular in the limit games to address their rake concerns since I am not very knowledgeable in limit variants of poker.

I think the most important thing to note is that we think any increased revenue Stars receives due to a change in the way that VPPs are awarded, should be given back to the players in some way, shape, or form. These are simply some proposed changes we think would be fair and would help give some of the money back to your most loyal customers.

Side Note: There are also VIP/Rake changes happening on PokerStars.fr which have been said to decrease rakeback by 12.5% and possibly more. Since that is a separate site, I’ll keep this portion brief but it’s worth noting that this rakeback decrease is happening on multiple PokerStars sites.

I will continue to update this thread when I have more information to share or more preparation for the Mass Sitout. Again I want to thank everyone for helping to take a stand against these changes.

Last edited by Mike Haven; 12-29-2011 at 07:07 PM.
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Old 12-30-2011, 06:21 AM   #2
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Re: *** Mass Sitout - Pokerstars - Jan 1st - Details Thread ***

Copy/paste / Quote this post:

bump since it's not sticky anymore. if it remains not sticky can ppl just post a copy of this bump and nothing else to keep it on front page but also keep it clutter free since there already is a discussion thread?

each penultimate bump will be deleted

Last edited by Mike Haven; 12-30-2011 at 10:10 AM.
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Old 12-30-2011, 02:47 PM   #3
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Re: *** Mass Sitout - Pokerstars - Jan 1st - Details Thread ***

UPDATE:

Since my OP, there has been two responses from PokerStars Steve (quoted below).


Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerStars Steve View Post
There are a few issues that I would like to comment on further.

Much good faith effort was put into designing rake changes, with the intention of improving the rake balance. This would have resulted in decreases in rake, both overall and for most individual players. These rake changes were designed as a whole, not as three separate changes. While we expected some people to be happy and others to be disappointed by the changes, we didn't expect the extreme negative reaction to this overall decrease. There was no ploy to introduce and then cancel the changes.

The response of many players to the announcement was not to ask for an explanation, but instead to plan a strike based around incorrect conclusions about the rake changes. After seeing players' unexpected negative reactions, we felt the right thing to do was to cancel the changes. We will still engage in dialog with players over the coming days about the rake change, including explaining the impact more thoroughly.

We are proud to offer the lowest overall rake of any major online poker site and a comprehensive, transparent VIP Club that rewards all real money players. We look forward to further discussions with the community about the change to the weighted contributed method, which will not be reversed to the dealt method. Contrary to some posts, this method does provide a benefit to a large number of players.
We will discuss potential rake and VIP adjustments with the community in the coming months. This will take some time. In the meantime, constructive discussion about these topics will be helpful.

We will also be happy to host a few representatives from the poker community on the Isle of Man to review numbers in much more depth, provided that they agree to sign appropriate non-disclosure agreements regarding sensitive data.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerStars Steve View Post
Thank you for your continued patience. We are working on a comprehensive and detailed response to the concerns expressed in these threads. I will post it as soon as it is complete.

In the meantime, it would be helpful if concerned players would build consensus around which posters might make good representatives to visit the Isle of Man to speak with PokerStars. I have received PMs from some interested players and some have expressed interest in this thread, but there has not yet been a strong consensus behind any players. If players can agree in public on a list of 5-6 acceptable representatives, for example, we will invite 2-3 to visit us.
This means we are at least moving in the right direction. It's important to note, however, that no changes have yet been made to the plan to go directly to WC with no further alterations at this time. These changes are still claimed to be effective on January, 1st 2012.

With that being said, they do at least to appear to be interested in negotiating with some players that represent the consensus view of PokerStars regulars. I'm not sure who the best group of people to represent us at this time are but as Steve asked, please make sure you continue to post names of people (and possibly some of their posts that make you feel they are qualified) in the thread in order to help our community choose the correct representatives.

Lastly, I wanted to include this post by Duckslayer2k because I really think it's something that shows how a lot of us here on 2p2 feel. Thanks again to him for this.

You may view it here: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=878

That's all for now but bare with me as I continue to update the cliffs as I sift through the (now very long) main mass sit out thread.

Remember, in compliance with the Mod's request, please do not post in this thread unless it is to quote the allowed bump. Please continue all discussion on the main Sitout thread HERE and I will do my best to relay the main points here.

Last edited by MSauce; 12-30-2011 at 03:06 PM.
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Old 12-30-2011, 03:06 PM   #4
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Re: *** Mass Sitout - Pokerstars - Jan 1st - Details Thread ***

I also saw that this post has been added to my OP on the main sit out thread and it is also a very good illustration of how WC (if left alone and implemented solely) will affect the poker community and pokerstars.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrtrebus View Post
Just to illustrat the point that stars would be pocketing extra cash on this:

A supernova elite who would have earned 1 million vpps under the old system and takes a 20% hit to vpps, now only earns 800,000 vpps.

He misses out on his $20k milestone bonus and because of his 5x vpp multiplier now earns 1 million less fpps worth $16,000. He also doesn't earn his $5,200 wcoop seat

Overall $41,200 less than the previous year

Those 200,000 vpps will be distributed mainly to losing/very loose players. Probably mainly bronze, silver and gold star, in that order.

Even if we use the vpp multiplier of a goldstar, 2x, these fpps are only worth a maximum of $4,800 to the players they go to, in reality these fpps vpps will be going to bronze stars and silver stars too, many less fpps will be earned and they will be cashed in at much lower rate.

The highest amount these vpps are likely to earn in milestones for players is $2,400 (this is how much all the milestones/stellar rewards up to supernova are worth.) Again in reality, these vpps will be distributed amongst a large number of players, who will earn an extra $5 or $10 stellar reward, if that.

So with the change to wc, a sne would have $41,200 knocked off his rewards with a maximum of $7,200 been distributed back to other players. With pokerstars pocketing the extra $34,000+
Remember, in compliance with the Mod's request, please do not post in this thread unless it is to quote the allowed bump. Please continue all discussion on the main Sitout thread HERE and I will do my best to relay the main points here.

Last edited by MSauce; 12-30-2011 at 03:18 PM.
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Old 12-30-2011, 03:18 PM   #5
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Re: *** Mass Sitout - Pokerstars - Jan 1st - Details Thread ***

I cannot say for sure, but I think this post could represent how several people feel as well about the negotiations with stars (bringing 2-3 people to isle of man for discussion) so I will add it:


Quote:
Originally Posted by apefish View Post
Why not have a closed thread here which everyone here can read but only a half dozen or so posters and mods can actually engage with stars. Those posters/ mods can take all the input from any source they want and bring it squarely to stars attention in the active dialogue thread.

I realize stars wants to have some non disclosure type arrangement but I'm unsure there's anything that could be done that way that allows the community to feel that the things they want said have been both said and listened to. This is a forum issue because the concerns are those of a good number of forum members. It should be resolved here and as openly as possible.

Pokerstars relies on a good relationship with the poker communities. This issue shouldn't be taken private.
Remember, in compliance with the Mod's request, please do not post in this thread unless it is to quote the allowed bump. Please continue all discussion on the main Sitout thread HERE and I will do my best to relay the main points here.
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Old 12-30-2011, 04:46 PM   #6
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Re: *** Mass Sitout - Pokerstars - Jan 1st - Details Thread ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMetetrown View Post
WE WILL NOT STOP THIS SITOUT UNLESS STARS DELAYS THE CHANGES UNTIL AFTER HOLDING NEGOTIATIONS WITH US
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSauce View Post
Very much agree with this. If you are open to negotiations with players it should come by delaying the changes until after they are complete. Implementing a flawed system for however long it takes to come to a good compromise is NOT acceptable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JH1 View Post
+1

The VIP Club Blast Off is specifically designed to discourage this Mass Sit Out group.

Look at the promotions:
Happy Hours
Pace Bonuses with target VPP goals
Discounted store items
Limited stock TCOOP tickets in the store

This promotion is specifically designed to create anger amongst those players unaware of the effects of the changes towards the Sit Out group that are going to be trying to explain the situation to them. We will be disrupting their ability to earn extra VPPs, bonuses and tourney tickets. Secondly it will attempt to encourage the Sit Out group to put in more volume and make up for the volume lost while sitting out during non-sit out times.


Do not participate in any part of this promotion.
Now, while I'm not prepared to say I/the community 100% agree that this is a response to what has been going on, I will still say that it is important this not detour anyone from our path of action and it seemed worth noting here.

Remember, in compliance with the Mod's request, please do not post in this thread unless it is to quote the allowed bump. Please continue all discussion on the main Sitout thread HERE and I will do my best to relay the main points here.
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Old 12-30-2011, 07:49 PM   #7
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Re: *** Mass Sitout - Pokerstars - Jan 1st - Details Thread ***

Proposed Limit Rake Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sect7G View Post
I spoke with Steve via PM about LHE and as it stands the only difference will be a move to WC from Dealt. This I see as no problem to the game per say except there will be no games running. This is a problem for Pstars and for soon to be former regs.

The reality is for this game we need to see the numbers on what a 11/9 FRLHE SNE at 3-6 actually pays to Pstars and compare it to SNE benefits. If it's found that he is effectively getting 90% rb then I see the need to move to contributed. But if the percentage of dealt hands includes players doing this is small then there is no need for change. This is why a breakdown of these types of players must be compared to the looser regs and at what VIP status they are all playing at to gauge the profit of both Stars and Players.


Right now the games are virtually unbeatable for a mass grinder who has no time to seat select/table select without rb. We are talking about a 1bb/100 for the best FRLHE players and a 2bb/100 hands for the best 6 max players who mass multitable. If the current regs (and this must be 80% plus are breakeven/slightly losing players) are going to take a projected rb % hit of 20-45 percent as some people have posted then there is a serious problem and the game will actually die.

I'd like to see a few options implimented as proposed changes.

1) vpp multiplier to 6x for 6 max LHE.

2) I'd like to see a rake cap of $1.50 for 2-4 games when the pot hits $40

3) I'd like to see a rake cap of $2.00 for 3-6 games when the pot hits $40

4) I'd like to see a rake cap of $2.50 for 5-10 games when the pot hits $70

These changes are not drastic as the scenarios I've suggested only occur rarely but would help a little.
Remember, in compliance with the Mod's request, please do not post in this thread unless it is to quote the allowed bump. Please continue all discussion on the main Sitout thread HERE and I will do my best to relay the main points here.
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Old 12-30-2011, 08:12 PM   #8
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Re: *** Mass Sitout - Pokerstars - Jan 1st - Details Thread ***

I've thought more and more about the proposed negotiation with PokerStars and bringing 2-3 representatives to address the issue behind closed doors and tend to agree with apefish and others that this may not be the best way for the community to achieve it's goals.

Not only is it very difficult for 2-3 people to represent all the limits/game types but also forcing people to sign a NDA can diminish their ability to get feedback from the community.

As a group, we are not asking for ANY information regarding PokerStars' operations or anything that should be extremely confidential. We are purely trying to address changes that were already made very public by PokerStars. I feel that if a small group of people are forced to sign NDAs and negotiate behind close doors, it will be hard for the community to achieve its goals in an efficient matter.

An Alternative

A better alternative in my opinion and others, would be to have some type of video conference that can be had by a few, but watched by many. A handful of picked members would be able to speak with Stars representatives in an organized and moderated fashion while the rest of the community watches and offers feedback in another public forum. Although we will never be able to please every single person's requests, we will have the best chance of appealing to the majority by keeping this out in the open.

I am not sure that Steve will want to go in this direction but I think it is clearly better for the players and the community as a whole. Please feel free to post your thoughts/concerns in the main sitout thread as well as some logistics for setting up such a conference if you have the knowledge on the best ways to do so.

Remember, in compliance with the Mod's request, please do not post in this thread unless it is to quote the allowed bump. Please continue all discussion on the main Sitout thread HERE and I will do my best to relay the main points here.

Last edited by Mike Haven; 12-30-2011 at 08:27 PM.
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Old 12-30-2011, 08:18 PM   #9
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Re: *** Mass Sitout - Pokerstars - Jan 1st - Details Thread ***

Also, for those of you who haven't already seen Goblet's post and calculated how this change will affect you; Steve has now posted it again with added screenshots to help.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerStars Steve View Post
For users of Hold'em Manager, the below procedure will show you the difference in VPP earnings between weighed contributed and dealt. It should take about five minutes.


1. Open PGAdmin III from your Postgres folder.


2. Connect to your local PostgreSQL server by right clicking and selecting Connect.'

If you are prompted for a Username and Password, the default username is usually 'postgres'. The default password will either be 'postgrespass' or dbpass'.


3. Once connected, click on your HoldemManager database. This is usually 'HoldemManager'. Then, with this database highlighted, click on the icon that shows a piece of paper with 'SQL' written on it. This will open a new window with some text.


4. Highlight all of the text in this window, and paste the following code into the window.

Code:
create or replace function amountPreflopInvested(tn playerhandscashmisc, pkh_id integer) returns integer AS $$
DECLARE
	amount integer := 0;
	other integer := 0;
BEGIN
	amount := tn.postamountpreflop + tn.betamountpreflop + tn.callamountpreflop;
	select max(pre.postamountpreflop + pre.betamountpreflop + pre.callamountpreflop) into other from pokerhands join 

playerhandscashkeycolumns using (pokerhand_id) join playerhandscashmisc pre using (playerhand_id) where pokerhand_id=pkh_id and not ishero;
	return least(amount, other);
END;
$$ language plpgsql;

create or replace function amountFlopInvested(tn playerhandsflop, pkh_id integer) returns integer AS $$
DECLARE
	amount integer := 0;
	other integer := 0;
BEGIN
	amount := tn.betamount + tn.callamount;
	select max(flop.betamount+flop.callamount) into other from pokerhands join playerhandscashkeycolumns using (pokerhand_id) join 

playerhandscashmisc using (playerhand_id) join playerhandsflop flop using(playerhand_id) where pokerhand_id=pkh_id and not ishero;
	return least(amount, other);
END;
$$ language plpgsql;

create or replace function amountTurnInvested(tn playerhandsturn, pkh_id integer) returns integer AS $$
DECLARE
	amount integer := 0;
	other integer := 0;
BEGIN
	amount := tn.betamount + tn.callamount;
	select max(turn.betamount+turn.callamount) into other from pokerhands join playerhandscashkeycolumns using (pokerhand_id) join 

playerhandscashmisc using (playerhand_id) join playerhandsturn turn using(playerhand_id) where pokerhand_id=pkh_id and not ishero;
	return least(amount, other);
END;
$$ language plpgsql;

create or replace function amountRiverInvested(tn playerhandsriver, pkh_id integer) returns integer AS $$
DECLARE
	amount integer := 0;
	other integer := 0;
BEGIN
	amount := tn.betamount + tn.callamount;
	select max(river.betamount+river.callamount) into other from pokerhands join playerhandscashkeycolumns using (pokerhand_id) join 

playerhandscashmisc using (playerhand_id) join playerhandsriver river using(playerhand_id) where pokerhand_id=pkh_id and not ishero;
	return least(amount, other);
END;
$$ language plpgsql;
	

select count(*) as "Hands", round(sum(a.rakeamount/a.numberofplayers))/100.0 as "Rake dealt",
round ( sum(a.rakeamount * 1.* (
		case when (b.maxstreetseen=0 or b.streetwentallin=1) then (amountPreflopInvested(c, a.pokerhand_id))
		when (b.maxstreetseen=1 or b.streetwentallin=2) then (c.postamountpreflop + c.betamountpreflop + c.callamountpreflop + 

amountFlopInvested(f, a.pokerhand_id))
		when (b.maxstreetseen=2 or b.streetwentallin=3) then (c.postamountpreflop + c.betamountpreflop + c.callamountpreflop + 

f.betamount + f.callamount + amountTurnInvested(t, a.pokerhand_id))
		else (c.postamountpreflop + c.betamountpreflop + c.callamountpreflop + f.betamount + f.callamount + t.betamount + 

t.callamount + amountRiverInvested(r, a.pokerhand_id)) end
	) / (a.potsize))
) / 100.0 as "WC Rake"
from pokerhands a join playerhandscashkeycolumns b using (pokerhand_id) join playerhandscashmisc c using (playerhand_id)
left join playerhandsflop f using(playerhand_id) left join playerhandsturn t using(playerhand_id) left join playerhandsriver r using

(playerhand_id)
where ishero and potsize>0 and a.handtimestamp>'2011-01-01 00:00:00' and a.site_id=2;
5. Once you have done this, press 'F5'. PostgreSQL will run for a short period of time and then display your rake under the Dealt method and the Weighted Contributed method in the screen below.



This code was kindly provided by 2p2 member GobletTamer.
Remember, in compliance with the Mod's request, please do not post in this thread unless it is to quote the allowed bump. Please continue all discussion on the main Sitout thread HERE and I will do my best to relay the main points here.
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Old 12-30-2011, 11:19 PM   #10
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Two new interesting posts on alternate ways of compensation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by starvingwriter82 View Post
What would players think of a permanent added promotion approach to compensating players?

For example, say in 2011 you played 8 hours a day, and you got 100 VPP an hour. You expect a 15% hit overall, for a decrease to 680 VPP a day (from 800). That sucks.

But what if two of those hours were during ring game happy hours, where you made 1.5x VPP? Then you're back up to 765 points a day. It's still a small loss, but remember - casual players are getting more, and that's not a bad thing. The ring game happy hours could, generally speaking, make the amount lost by regulars and the amount gained by casual players closer to even, solving any "money grab" problems.

It could also generate increased traffic for Stars, which isn't a bad thing.

So basically, what I would suggest is:

Make ring game happy hours a permanent fixture. Schedule them four times a day and spread out the times, such as 6 p.m., 12 p.m., 6 a.m., and 12 a.m., so as many players can use them as possible, while also making it relatively easy to hit multiples if you want, but relatively hard to hit all four. If they wanted, they could even make some of them a 2x multiplier, like FTP used to do, with some 2x and some 3x happy hours.

Remember, this whole mess started because we were worried about the money grab that WC represents. If stars invested in ring game happy hours, it would "make it right" with players, while also giving them a great promotional tool.

If they kept the monthly bonus for "on pace" that would be cool too, but imo that's just less important, as it benefits casuals much less, while adding a lot of value for high end grinders, which imo just isn't that important (we already have milestone credits).

Thoughts on this? I'm just trying to think outside the box at ways this situation can be made into a "win/win" or solid compromise without burning all parties.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JH1 View Post
I'm still thinking about the best way to run the numbers on this but as a general concept I think it's pretty fantastic if they work out. As long as they don't run it like FTP and make it game specific at different times but rather have all Happy Hours run site wide. I'm typing up whatever is below here on the fly so these are first impressions and general thoughts on player situations how this might affect different types of players:

High level SN to SNE
  • These players are the hardest hit in terms of number of VPPs reduced and volume required to his their VIP level again.
  • Assuming a SNE plays 8 hours a day on Dealt and requires 25% more volume with WC for 10 hours a day, they could essentially play 7 regular hours and 2 "overtime" happy hours for a total of 9 hours. I don't know if 25% is accurate and you'd have to run the HEM script to know for sure and then plug your own numbers in here.
  • I think in comparison to Dealt this works out to 7 hours @ 75% VPP rate + 2 hours @ 112% VPP rate. (112% comes from 75%*1.5).
  • 7*0.75 + 2*1.12 = 7.49 prorated hours for a recalibrated reduction of 6.25% under WC. So you'd end up putting in a bit more time but less than a straight WC switch and SNE should still be achievable.
  • Smaller reduction for <25% WC affect and larger reduction for >25% WC affect.

Low to mid level SN
  • In my experience these are people like me that put in between 2-4 hours a day depending on stakes and number of tables played.
  • If I were to expect the same 20-25% WC reduction effect but could play 1 out of my regular 3 hours at 1.5 happy hour, using the same formula as above:
  • 2*0.75 + 1*1.12 = 2.62 prorated hours for a recalibrated reduction of 13%.

Sub-Supernova 25k-80k Gold / Platinum
  • These would be your micro regs and small-mid stakes recreationals.
  • The idea of happy hour could actually really help recreationals out and be a draw to get them to show up more regularly -- kind of like the 'appointment poker' term Stars likes to use for Sat/Sun majors and bigs. They would benefit a lot compared to what they were getting under Dealt by receiving way more VPPs/hand than they were plus getting those VPPs/FPPs multiplied by even more if they stick to a schedule. This is a huge plus for everyone site wide.
  • ime a lot of the micro regs are actually putting in Supernova level volume at lower stakes where 100k just isn't possible so the affects it would have on them would be similar to Supernovas.

Silver / Bronze
  • Basically any kind of multiplier is going to be a massive boost for these recreationals playing fairly low stakes as long as Stars keeps the increased table VPP multipliers for nano stakes.
  • Lets say a recreational sees a 25% increase in VPP/hand at 2NL where they currently have a 10x multiplier (iirc the increased multiplier was put in place to offset some rake structure changes they had there, for reference: at some point there was a thread called "hey stars when did you start raking these pots?" so it does need to be kept in place and has no bearing on this calculation). So they get their 25% increase and then play half of their hands during happy hours: 0.5*1.25 + 0.5*1.88 = 1.57 or an increase in VIP value of 57%.

Those are the kinds of big numbers for recreationals that I would hope they would receive given this change, even though they are still relatively small compared to the reduction that SN/SNE would be getting, but it's still better.

To compare all of that now assuming Bronze and Silver are generally recreationals who are going to be on the receiving end of a 25% redistribution, using best value cash bonus:
  • Dealt VPP value after multipliers are applied: SNE $0.080 | SN $0.056 | Silver $0.016 | Bronze $0.010
  • Straight WC effective value, +/- 25% factor: SNE $0.060 | SN $0.042 | Silver $0.020 | Bronze $0.013
  • WC effective with Happy mitigation above: SNE $0.075 | SN $0.049 | Silver $0.025 | Bronze $0.016

* I left out Gold and Platinum here, just wanted to give a general sense of effective value movement. Note that I am not saying that a SNE VPP would be worth $0.075 as it's still obviously worth $0.08. This is only for relative comparison's sake for figuring out your calibrated benefit reduction rate and you were able to schedule a decent portion of your play to Happy Hours.

Sorry for the wall of text. There are obviously so many more variables to consider when you're trying to calculate WC rakeback compared to the relative ease of calculating Dealt, so figure out where on this list you are and how a permanent Happy Hour schedule would fit into your game plan and plug your numbers in to figure out if this would be generally acceptable to you.
*

Correction to JH1's Post.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JH1 View Post
Miscalculation here, thought 6.25% was way too low. Can a mod change the above to:

_______________

[*]In comparison to Dealt this works out to 6.5 hours @ 75% VPP rate + 2.75 hours @112% VPP rate. (112% comes from 75%*1.5).
[*]6.5*0.75 + 2.75*1.12 = 8 prorated hours for a recalibrated reduction of 15% based on an extra 1.25 hours needing to be played for the same number of VPPs.

________________

Which would change the VPP value for SNE with mitigation factor at the bottom of the post to $0.068 instead of $0.075.

Sorry for the mix up.
Remember, in compliance with the Mod's request, please do not post in this thread unless it is to quote the allowed bump. Please continue all discussion on the main Sitout thread HERE and I will do my best to relay the main points here.

Last edited by Mike Haven; 12-31-2011 at 04:55 AM. Reason: 2 posts merged
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Old 12-31-2011, 03:30 PM   #11
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Re: *** Mass Sitout - Pokerstars - Jan 1st - Details Thread ***

PokerStars has contacted a few users in private in order to make a trip to the Isle of Man in mid-to-late January.

In order to create a unified voice that PokerStars will have an easier time hearing a group of us have held discussions about how best to proceed.

This group consists of JH1, TheMetetrown, MSauce, Starvingwriter82, and Hood. Klairic has been invited but has not responded to the invitation yet. The community is free to suggest other participants for these discussions.

A majority of the group has drafted a letter for Steve/PokerStars that we think represents the views of the group and the community as a whole.

Below I have posted the letter and added our signatures to it. Please quote it and sign your name or simply +1 it if you agree HERE.

Also, feel free to post any comments or concerns HERE.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Open letter to PokerStars Steve,

After talking with players heavily involved in these discussions, we feel that it would be inappropriate to delay negotiations into mid to late January given the impending switch to WC and the immediate, unacceptable reduction in VIP benefits for our supporters and the player pool as a whole.

We do not feel the need to see much, if any, sensitive information such as PokerStars' profits or business plan. We simply want to talk about the reductions in player benefits from the players' standpoint. We feel that any of the numbers we would be discussing involving rake caps, rake percentages, True vs Incremental rake, and Table-VPP multipliers etc. would be made open to the public and analyzed by the community, having no bearing on PokerStars inner business workings.

We would like to propose an alternative method of communication that would alleviate these concerns and hold these discussions online, either through a dedicated locked thread on 2+2 or through a private discussion group of which the results would be made public. Our goal is to preserve as much transparency in these discussions as possible.

We expect that the player community would delay their planned sit out if PokerStars is willing to defer the implementation of WC or any other VIP/Rake changes until negotiations are completed, effectively keeping the existing VIP structure in place until negotiations are finalized.

Thanks for your consideration,

Josh (JH1)
Mazin (MSauce)
Nick (TheMetetrown)
Issac (starvingwriter82)

Remember, in compliance with the Mod's request, please do not post in this thread unless it is to quote the allowed bump. Please continue all discussion on the main Sitout thread HERE and I will do my best to relay the main points here.
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Old 01-01-2012, 01:41 PM   #12
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Re: *** Mass Sitout - Pokerstars - Jan 1st - Details Thread ***

How long is this happening for?
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