Game of Thrones Bookreader Thread: ***TV SPOILERS ITT*** - Page 427

Lemongate is not a thing bc citrus doesn't grow in braavos except for in the courts of the rich, which is were Dany was.

GRRM may have goofed and then clarified in AFFC

Yeah, no. Read the FAQ.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluegrassplayer

Top comment in the faq. Makes a lot of sense but it's a lot of effort for grrm for such a tiny reveal.

Yeah. The simplest solution is that Dorne were harboring them and that the reveal will just be that Dorne have been Targ loyalists and in rebellion against Robert from day 1. If it's something that prosaic I'm going to be a bit mad though.

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07-25-2017 , 09:07 AM

#10652

skudroc

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ChrisV, your posting game is lit

one thing that always bothers me hard: comparing molten gold to fire! so we cleared that grrm said that targs are not immune to fire. nice, but viserys never touched fire, his face was fully frenchkissed by molten gold! i can see the differnce, but guys and gals noticing minor things in a 10.ooo page story and forming sick theories out of it cant? i call tilt-mode on myself

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07-25-2017 , 09:50 AM

#10653

Kneel B4 Zod

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisV

Yeah, no. Read the FAQ.

You know, I just did (long, but I skimmed!), but it's very Preston Jacobs-ey. I don't think he considers the fact that GRRM simply screwed up. That is far more likely than...

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisV

Yeah. The simplest solution is that Dorne were harboring them and that the reveal will just be that Dorne have been Targ loyalists and in rebellion against Robert from day 1.

which is convoluted, complex, and also internally consistent. from someone else I read:

Quote:

1) “Trees did not grow on Braavos, save in the courts and gardens of the mighty.” Which is precisely where li’l Dany was living.

2) There’s no indication that Dany and Viserys were ever separated.

3) I see no reason for Viserys to later lie to Dany about where the house with the red door was.

4) Unless you plan on launching the counter-revolution immediately, exile actually makes a lot more sense than squirreling yourself away somewhere in Westeros.

5) Doran Martell is a hyper-cautious man, even as he gradually advances his plans. He was willing to send Arianne to Tyrosh to meet Viserys, in secret, under the guise of fosterage. It would be entirely OOC for him to have hosted Dany and Viserys in Dorne.

6) And even if he did, why then send them away? Why give control of them over to Illyrio? It’s pretty clear that Varys and Illyrio aren’t in league with the Martells, after all. (Not yet.)

7) Why wouldn’t Doran tell Quentyn this? It would’ve been such a helpful revelation for him to spring on Dany: I’m here to bring you back to your childhood home. We kept you safe, now we’re ready to help you win your birthright.

I’m sure there are more reasons that I’m forgetting, but that’s plenty. Like I said about the whole Mance = Arthur Dayne thing, this is inventing a mystery where there is none and solving it with nonsense.

...

Quote:

Q: Let’s be real here: can we acknowledge that the lemon tree thing is probably a Doylist failure on Martin’s part, because he liked the lemon tree symbology and probably, in 1996, did not actually sit down and figure out the precise logistics about just how immensely difficult it would be to keep a lemon tree not just surviving, but thriving well enough to bear fruit and be aesthetically pleasing in a northern environment that doesn’t get a lot of sun and that is cold an awful lot?

And that that’s okay?

Not everything has to be seamless.

A: Oh, absolutely! But I think that’s precisely why he threw that line about trees in the gardens of the wealthy into AFFC. Still doesn’t necessarily add up logistically, but it’s a direct refutation to theories like this.

IOW, GRRM heard the theory, realized he screwed up, and threw the line in there for consistency sake. That's exactly the reason for the line. does it make it all perfect? no, but he was trying

Last edited by Kneel B4 Zod; 07-25-2017 at 10:04 AM.

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07-25-2017 , 09:59 AM

#10654

Bluegrassplayer

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Preston definitely does have a video dealing with this, no idea if it was his theory first or not.

I could very easily see GRRM realizing he screwed up and just doing something to give it a minor fix.

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07-25-2017 , 10:23 AM

#10655

ChrisV

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All well and good, but the problems are:

- GRRM's response to the fan who asked about it. It's troll of the century if he gave that reply when there's actually nothing to it.

- Some of the hints in the books about it postdate AFFC. The most convincing is from a TWOW sample chapter:

Quote:

"Seven hells, this place is damp," she heard her guard complain. "I'm chilled to the bones. Where are the bloody orange trees? I always heard there were orange trees in the Free Cities. Lemons and limes. Pomegranates. Hot peppers, warm nights, girls with bare bellies. Where are the bare-bellied girls, I ask you?"

"Down in Lys, and Myr, and Old Volantis," the other guard replied. He was an older man, big-bellied and grizzled. "I went to Lys with Lord Tywin once, when he was Hand to Aerys. Braavos is north of King's Landing, fool. Can't you read a bloody map?"

Just a couple guards standing around having a conversation about the lack of citrus trees in the vicinity, as you do. I mean, come the **** on. The citrus trees reference is very obviously shoehorned in there.

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07-25-2017 , 12:05 PM

#10656

Kneel B4 Zod

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so, yeah I could see how you see that as evidence.

or, it could be a random conversation! or even GRRM trolling, sure.

again, if she was secretly raised in Dorne - this isn't something Doran would have wanted her to know? to me that's the most problematic part. why didn't Quentyn say anything about this? surely that would have been on his list of items to discuss.

We've also seen no evidence of Ilyrio working with the Martells. so narratively, it doesn't really make sense with the evidence we have about the characters.

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07-25-2017 , 12:27 PM

#10657

NoAGame

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http://www.avclub.com/article/george...-s-not--258492

This guy is killing me.

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07-25-2017 , 12:48 PM

#10658

mrbaseball

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Quote:

Originally Posted by NoAGame

http://www.avclub.com/article/george...-s-not--258492

This guy is killing me.

You couldn't pay me enough to ever read another book by this fool. The next GoT book isn't even supposed to be the last is it? If the next one comes it will be 700 pages of food and clothing descriptions with 100 pages of plot which barely moves the story forward. Only reason I read them in the first place was because season one hooked me hard. I would never again consider reading a book series that isn't finished yet. Too damn frustrating.

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07-25-2017 , 12:53 PM

#10659

NoAGame

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Nah, the next book will be awesome. Only question is if I still have a full head of hair when it comes out.

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07-25-2017 , 04:30 PM

#10660

bobman0330

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisV

Yeah, although that's been de-emphasized quite a bit in the show and will continue to be. It looks like Dany's being set up as a full on hero, while in the books we see that, e.g., her conquest of Meereen isn't necessarily that awesome for the people. In the books I expect the idea that Dany has a "right" to wage war in Westeros to be questioned at some point, while in the show it probably won't be. I think that's what Lemongate is going to relate to (not sure how obsessive the fandom is ITT, do people know what I mean when I say Lemongate?)

I don't think it's fair to say they are downplaying that theme. In the premiere episode they found that the farmer that they saw previously had killed his daughter and then himself because they were dying of starvation. Septon whats-his-face getting killed last season was similar.

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07-25-2017 , 05:02 PM

#10661

KansasCT

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Anyone watch Watching Thrones by Screen Junkies? Pretty interesting weekly show on YouTube. Michele Boyd is pretty hot and smart. Spence Gilbert is nice too.

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07-25-2017 , 05:31 PM

#10662

Kneel B4 Zod

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yeah, the entire thrust of Dany's plan is due to Tyrion's opinion that killing tons of people is bad. I don't think it's an idea lost on the writers.

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07-25-2017 , 06:29 PM

#10663

Ra_Z_Boy

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bobman0330

Jesus I have only just twigged those were the same people we'd seen before.

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07-25-2017 , 06:42 PM

#10664

johnny_on_the_spot

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Ra_Z_Boy

Jesus I have only just twigged those were the same people we'd seen before.

"Previously on..." that include random little seen characters are always Chekhov's guns. This goes for any show

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07-25-2017 , 07:33 PM

#10665

Namath12

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Quote:

Originally Posted by KansasCT

Anyone watch Watching Thrones by Screen Junkies? Pretty interesting weekly show on YouTube. Michele Boyd is pretty hot and smart. Spence Gilbert is nice too.

Cool thanks for the tip

Binge Mode is doing a new thing after every ep as well, I think they have something on Twitter plus there's the podcast itself.

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07-25-2017 , 07:33 PM

#10666

Dominic

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I really think Dany is going to go full-on Mad King at some point. Maybe have a redemption before she dies.

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07-26-2017 , 12:03 AM

#10667

ChrisV

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Was pointed out by someone on r/asoiaf that Tyrion is one of the few people on Westeros who knows that Littlefinger betrayed Ned and that Jon is riding south for a little chat with him. The Hound also knows and is riding north and might call in at Winterfell. Littlefinger has to be not long for this world.

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07-26-2017 , 12:18 AM

#10668

Bluegrassplayer

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Seems like there's enough people in the throne room that this should have gotten out already. Surely Sansa would have figured it out. Really doubt that is made into a big point.

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07-26-2017 , 12:46 AM

#10669

filthyvermin

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littlefinger betrayed ned?? ****, my memory is bad

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07-26-2017 , 01:02 AM

#10670

Kirbynator

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"i warned you not to trust me"

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07-26-2017 , 01:11 AM

#10671

filthyvermin

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i have no memory of that at all. and i watched the whole series like 5 times, and read all the books

i couldn't remember who won the fight between the mountain and the viper after reading the book and seeing the show. after going through it three times, i now know who won

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07-26-2017 , 03:26 AM

#10672

JB91

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisV

It does seem like all of Littlefinger's plans have gone to ****. He probably should take his army and go back the Vale and chill out for a couple years.

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07-26-2017 , 03:28 AM

#10673

Bluegrassplayer

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Atrocious writing that it's "his army" to begin with.

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07-26-2017 , 06:56 AM

#10674

Ra_Z_Boy

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Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny_on_the_spot

"Previously on..." that include random little seen characters are always Chekhov's guns. This goes for any show

I don't get the previously on on my coverage.

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07-26-2017 , 01:41 PM

#10675

StringerB

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominic

I really think Dany is going to go full-on Mad King at some point. Maybe have a redemption before she dies.

I've been telling friends for years I think Dany is going to go down the "Mad-King" path... I think it would make for a great turn in the story (and Martin is a bit of an unconventional story teller).

TV would probably dictate that she redeems herself at the end. But if that fat bastard ever finishes the books I'm hoping for full blown bad guy status by the end!

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