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Old 06-03-2008, 01:14 AM   #1
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Pokercast Episode 26 - Ultimate Bet Scandal & Paul Leggett

Live from the Two Plus Two Studios - This week on Pokercast the guys talk about the now underway 2008 World Series of Poker that just kicked-off at the Rio. The featured guest this week is Paul Leggett, Chief Operating Officer of Tokwiro Enterprises. Tokwiro Enterprises is a private company that owns both Absolute Poker and UltimateBet. Paul talks about the Ultimate Bet cheating scandal that was uncovered by two plus two members and the recent press release about what actually went on behind the scenes. Mike and Adam also talk tournament news, forum static and of course give away the password for the June 8th Poker Stars VIP Club freeroll for Pokercast listeners.
Intro - Pokercast Theme - Demitone Productions Inc. - 2007 :

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Old 06-03-2008, 03:26 AM   #2
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Re: Pokercast Episode 26 - Ultimate Bet Scandal & Paul Leggett

too soft??...ummm....

maybe a little but you guys do need to be civil to your guests so its understandable that you didn't just chop him down.

I was rather surprised buy the question "if you were a high stakes player would you still play on UB?".. what do you think the answer was ever going to be for that one?????

over all though I am impressed that you guys were able to get an UB rep on the show so props for that.

keep up the great work guys



PS: I was hoping somewhere along the line this would turn into jerry springer episode and you guys would bring out a bunch of the 2+2 highstakes UB players that got cheated.....but i guess i was hoping for a bit much..
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Old 06-03-2008, 03:32 AM   #3
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Re: Pokercast Episode 26 - Ultimate Bet Scandal & Paul Leggett

IMO the three interesting things from the Leggett interview were that A) he stated that Joe Norton is 100% owner of both UB and Absolute B) that the perpetrator behind the cheating at Absolute was not connected with the cheating at UB, and C) they made a deal with the person behind the cheating at Absolute not to purse any sort of punishment against him in return for his telling them how the cheating was done.

A) is important because if it can be shown that Tokwiro is some sort of shell company, then all of Leggett's and Tokwiro's credibility is completely destroyed.

B) was very surprising to me considering the incredible similarities between the two thefts in terms of both how they were perpetrated and where they occurred.

C) was completely new to me and pretty shocking. To think that Tokwiro would just let a person who cost them over a million dollars off the hook like that without any attempt at punishment or restitution shows, at the very least, remarkably bad judgment.

Also interesting was that Leggett continued AP's assertion that only one person was behind the cheating at Absolute Poker when there is quite a bit of evidence that both Scott Tom and A.J. Green were involved.
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:03 AM   #4
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Re: Pokercast Episode 26 - Ultimate Bet Scandal & Paul Leggett

Thought the interview was done rather well. You can't get answers someone doesn't want to give and I thought the questions got about what they could out of him.

Mike and Adam did a good job covering the various points people have been making in the large NVG thread.
The guy sounded a bit backed into a corner when the Scott Tom/AJ Green ownership issue was brought up.
Notice he used "consultant" again in talking about any residual relationship once Tokwiro became owner- which echoes the "rogue consultant" phrasing in the AP releases, but never denied their pay may be based on revenue/profit generated.
He went into spin mode and reiterated simply that Joe Norton is the sole owner now.

I also liked that you guys came back to the "will these people be punished" aspect several times, even if he simply went back to script every time.

Overall well done. A good listen.
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Old 06-03-2008, 09:43 AM   #5
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Re: Pokercast Episode 26 - Ultimate Bet Scandal & Paul Leggett

Haven't listened to it yet but having this subject/guest on the podcast is great.

alright time to see if my intro gets used!
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Old 06-03-2008, 12:03 PM   #6
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Re: Pokercast Episode 26 - Ultimate Bet Scandal & Paul Leggett

Great show guys, glad you got someone on from UB. Would be good to hear more news about the WSOP next week...
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Old 06-03-2008, 12:17 PM   #7
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Re: Pokercast Episode 26 - Ultimate Bet Scandal & Paul Leggett

Excellent job, thanks to the people involved.

I'm fairly new here but was wondering if the discussion of this would be best moved to a new NVG thread, the old thread is 50 pages now so would this be a good time to lock it and use this as the starting point for the new thread?

I also wondered if a transcript of the interview will be posted to make detailed discussion easier?

cheers, P
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Old 06-03-2008, 12:29 PM   #8
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Re: Pokercast Episode 26 - Ultimate Bet Scandal & Paul Leggett

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Originally Posted by Prolekult View Post
Excellent job, thanks to the people involved.

I'm fairly new here but was wondering if the discussion of this would be best moved to a new NVG thread, the old thread is 50 pages now so would this be a good time to lock it and use this as the starting point for the new thread?

I also wondered if a transcript of the interview will be posted to make detailed discussion easier?

cheers, P
There is already a discussion of the Pokercast in the NVG thread, they want to keep that thread alive.

I don't think providing a transcript is in the best interests of the Pokercast or its sponsors, we want you guys to listen to the show, not read the show!
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Old 06-03-2008, 01:39 PM   #9
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Re: Pokercast Episode 26 - Ultimate Bet Scandal & Paul Leggett

fair enough, cheers for the reply TT - I wouldn't fancy the job of doing the transcript either
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Old 06-03-2008, 02:15 PM   #10
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Re: Pokercast Episode 26 - Ultimate Bet Scandal & Paul Leggett

I think it was a great show this week.

Two points:
- I applaud AP/UB being the topic of this week's show.
- you guys did a great job with the interview, as good as could be expected. It's not liking he was going to breakdown crying in the middle of it, and admit he was the mastermind. Only a company man is going to do such an interview, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.

Paul Leggett should be commended for doing the show as well, like you guys said, he has a ****ty job right now.

jc
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Old 06-03-2008, 02:29 PM   #11
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Re: Pokercast Episode 26 - Ultimate Bet Scandal & Paul Leggett

What, no "Official Questions For Ultimate Bet Scandal" thread?
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:07 PM   #12
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Re: Pokercast Episode 26 - Ultimate Bet Scandal & Paul Leggett

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Originally Posted by *TT* View Post
There is already a discussion of the Pokercast in the NVG thread, they want to keep that thread alive.
Link? I don't see it. Unless you mean that super long-ass thread about UB Cheating. But that is not specifically about the Pokercast.
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:45 PM   #13
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Re: Pokercast Episode 26 - Ultimate Bet Scandal & Paul Leggett

Interesting show, I think all around everybody (hosts/guest) did the best possibble job considering the circumstances. Good stuff.
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Old 06-03-2008, 05:03 PM   #14
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Re: Pokercast Episode 26 - Ultimate Bet Scandal & Paul Leggett

Jurisdiction is going to make it tough for there to be any legal case brought against the offenders even if UB or AP actually want to prosecute. Is there any precedent of a previous case being brought in civil or criminal court for any cheating case? I've never heard of a legal case other than cheating in brick and mortar casinos which make jurisdiction much easier.
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Old 06-03-2008, 05:42 PM   #15
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Re: Pokercast Episode 26 - Ultimate Bet Scandal & Paul Leggett

Good job guys.

Some lies from him and you let him get away with a lot of spin but you had a 35 minute interview with a company who has only made 2 public statements in the past 6 months after 20 months of insider cheating. You asked a lot of tough questions and showed a great understanding of the subject material.

Good show, you did a service to the poker industry. Please don't let this subject die in the future.
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Old 06-03-2008, 08:55 PM   #16
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Re: Pokercast Episode 26 - Ultimate Bet Scandal & Paul Leggett

Nice show. I'm not sure how much of his story I believe. However, given that Absolute Poker never even got close to the media, and certainly never gave interviews AFAIK, I guess I have to give them credit for at least showing up.

He was bland but no more so than the WSOP commissioner talking about "promoting and maintaining the brand."
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Old 06-03-2008, 08:56 PM   #17
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Re: Pokercast Episode 26 - Ultimate Bet Scandal & Paul Leggett

I've thought you guys, particularly Schwartz, have been soft in the past.

This interview, particularly Schwartz, was very well done. You asked hard questions and hammered away. The spokesman sounded terrible and you didn't bail him out.

I'm glad that Adam insisted on using language like "cheating" and got the spokesman to use the same language.

Glad to see the pressure kept up on AP/UB. I hope they wither away. Thinking that this response would be suitable to restore player confidence in the site shows the remarkable depth of contempt Tokwiro has for their customer base. At each opportunity they dig the pit a little deeper.

Last edited by jfk; 06-03-2008 at 09:12 PM.
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Old 06-03-2008, 09:25 PM   #18
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Re: Pokercast Episode 26 - Ultimate Bet Scandal & Paul Leggett

Sounds like "Da Queer-O" Enterprises. On a more serious note, they allowed themselves to get 1, 2 teddied in the ass... like Mike or Adam asserted there's no way you buy a billion dollar company without doing a extensive review of the company first. We're dealing with a casino here, there's no way a player can win this type of money and not provoke investigation, at least a friendly "hello" from the floorman, or manager if ya know what I'm saying . Ignorance = bliss... or does ignorance = bills,
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Old 06-04-2008, 02:58 AM   #19
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Re: Pokercast Episode 26 - Ultimate Bet Scandal & Paul Leggett

Great show. Hats off to Mike and Adam for covering both these scandals in depth.

Best question was Mike asking why he still works for AP/UB. It felt like he wanted to say I don't know, I probably should quit.

I also love the fact that you guys hammer on Card Player for not covering this. Both CP and Bluff, who claim to be the industry leaders in all things poker, have not given this the coverage these cheating scandals deserve. Journalistic integrity? Not so much.

Been a fan for a long time, keep it up...
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Old 06-04-2008, 05:51 AM   #20
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Re: Pokercast Episode 26 - Ultimate Bet Scandal & Paul Leggett

Cool how u guys talked about Baxx signing with UB. Now I read Eric Lynch just did too.
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Old 06-04-2008, 10:52 AM   #21
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Re: Pokercast Episode 26 - Ultimate Bet Scandal & Paul Leggett

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Originally Posted by drtiehead View Post
I also love the fact that you guys hammer on Card Player for not covering this. Both CP and Bluff, who claim to be the industry leaders in all things poker, have not given this the coverage these cheating scandals deserve. Journalistic integrity? Not so much.
In addition to being a former recording engineer I am also a former magazine publisher. I probably shouldn't say this but I don't see any journalistic integrity on CardPlayer's work, case in point the constant promotion of SpadeClub (which is owned by CardPlayer/Card Player's owners) - its an ethical conflict of interest to be in competition of the brands that they cover. Additionally they tend to support the players that sign PR deals with their in-house management and PR company (I heard a rumor that the company recently closed but I cannot confirm yet).

Bluff on the other hand has gotten a lot better, there is no denying that. The new editor has stepped up to the plate, its not perfect yet but its far better than it was 8 months ago.

It saddens me that both companies still accept advertising from UB and Absolute, 2+2 will not accept any business with either company at this stage.
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Old 06-04-2008, 11:19 AM   #22
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Re: Pokercast Episode 26 - Ultimate Bet Scandal & Paul Leggett

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Originally Posted by *TT* View Post
2+2 will not accept any business with either company at this stage.
= CLASS

It feels good to be a part of a forum that takes this position.
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Old 06-04-2008, 11:54 AM   #23
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Re: Pokercast Episode 26 - Ultimate Bet Scandal & Paul Leggett

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Originally Posted by TelevisedEvent View Post
Cool how u guys talked about Baxx signing with UB. Now I read Eric Lynch just did too.
In my mind it calls into question their judgement, if not their integrity.
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Old 06-04-2008, 12:16 PM   #24
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Re: Pokercast Episode 26 - Ultimate Bet Scandal & Paul Leggett

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Originally Posted by freewheeler View Post
= CLASS

It feels good to be a part of a forum that takes this position.
QFT
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Old 06-04-2008, 12:29 PM   #25
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Re: Pokercast Episode 26 - Ultimate Bet Scandal & Paul Leggett

I thought the show was excellent. Mike and Adam did a great job asking the questions without alienating the guest even though the guest did tend to talk in circles.

What really bothered me about the discussion is that AP had to make a deal with the perpetrator to find out how the cheating was done. Being an IT person that brings up a big red flag for me. Questions that immediately came to mind are what type of forensic investigation has been done to ensure that no other back doors or software are still on the servers? Why didn't the security team see this activity in the first place? Seems like their security team did not do their due diligence in preventing this. Either that or some one in the security team was involved as well.

The number one rule in any IT organization is to only give users the absolute minimum access to systems that they need to do their jobs. Obviously someone in both organizations had too high of access privileges and took advantage of them.

Another question that I think the COO skirted is specifically what measures have they set in place to mitigate the chances of this happening again? Internal audits, outside audit independent audits, security testing, reviews of access privileges, etc., etc. His statement that they have put in place measures to ensure that "hopefully" (yes he said it) prevent this from ever happening again.

There also seems to me to be a conflict of interest between the owners of AP/UB, KGC, and their current "independent" auditors. Something in that whole mix just doesn't set right with me after hearing the interview.

I think they have many more questions to answer before I'd ever begin to consider playing there.
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