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Old 01-04-2012, 12:35 PM   #1
Bunner
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PokerCast Episode 204 - PokerStars Ring Game Changes & Jason Mercier

Live from the Two Plus Two Studios, January 3rd 2012 - PokerStars Ring Game Changes & Jason Mercier The feature guest this week on the Two Plus Two PokerCast is tournament wizard & Team PokerStars pro Jason Mercier. Jason joins Mike and Adam from his home in Florida to talk about his fourth consecutive year with over one million dollars in tournament earnings, his plans for the upcoming PCA and even trys his luck at some Miami Heat trivia. The guys also discuss the controversial change to the way rake is calculate in PokerStars ring games effecting the VIP program and how Frequent Player Ponts are distributed. In forum static Mike and Adam talk some Phil Ivey gossip, crown the winner of "Ms. OOT" and of course give away the password for the January 8th Poker Stars VIP Club Invitational for PokerCast listeners.


PokerCast Theme - Demitone Productions Inc. 2007 : Flaws - Bastille - Laura Palmer EP : Dragon Queens - Star****er - Reptillians 2011 : Boys Will Be Kings - Raised Among Wolves - Raised Among Wolves 2011 :
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Old 01-04-2012, 12:40 PM   #2
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Re: PokerCast Episode 204 - PokerStars Ring Game Changes & Jason Mercier

good!

S/B tries.

calculated

Points

PokerStars

http://pokercast.s3.amazonaws.com/twoplustwo_204.mp3

Last edited by Hammerhands; 01-04-2012 at 12:49 PM.
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Old 01-04-2012, 12:44 PM   #3
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Re: PokerCast Episode 204 - PokerStars Ring Game Changes & Jason Mercier

2st!
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Old 01-04-2012, 12:48 PM   #4
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Re: PokerCast Episode 204 - PokerStars Ring Game Changes & Jason Mercier

Turd =)

DL: http://pokercast.s3.amazonaws.com/twoplustwo_204.mp3

Last edited by jefkve; 01-04-2012 at 12:50 PM. Reason: added link.....you're welcome
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Old 01-04-2012, 01:05 PM   #5
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Re: PokerCast Episode 204 - PokerStars Ring Game Changes & Jason Mercier

farth..............urgh
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Old 01-04-2012, 01:11 PM   #6
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Re: PokerCast Episode 204 - PokerStars Ring Game Changes & Jason Mercier

9TH
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Old 01-04-2012, 01:18 PM   #7
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Re: PokerCast Episode 204 - PokerStars Ring Game Changes & Jason Mercier

sexth
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Old 01-04-2012, 01:23 PM   #8
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Re: PokerCast Episode 204 - PokerStars Ring Game Changes & Jason Mercier

some number that doesn't matter at all-th

Last edited by superkewli; 01-04-2012 at 01:30 PM.
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Old 01-04-2012, 02:01 PM   #9
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Re: PokerCast Episode 204 - PokerStars Ring Game Changes & Jason Mercier

ocho-th
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:40 PM   #10
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Re: PokerCast Episode 204 - PokerStars Ring Game Changes & Jason Mercier

Great episode guys. I`m glad you didn`t hold back the tough questions I respect that. You were unbiased and covered the topic very well, thank you. I`m a Supernova from PEI so I`ve taken a 24% hit to my bottom line. I was planning a SNE run but it`s up in the air right now. I hope Stars and the players come to a mutual agreement which softens the blow.

Happy New years guys and go Canucks go!
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Old 01-04-2012, 04:04 PM   #11
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Re: PokerCast Episode 204 - PokerStars Ring Game Changes & Jason Mercier

+ 1, I was abit aprehensive before this but you guys did a great job. I take back my recent criticism of the show being biased.


however

Steve D was suprisingly bad. I found him at some points to be rather bitchy and unprofessional. Sad really because normally he is great. guess the stress of the situation is getting to him.
wonder how he would react if he was told he would have to work 20%+ more to acheive the same salary from his job
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Old 01-04-2012, 04:28 PM   #12
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Re: PokerCast Episode 204 - PokerStars Ring Game Changes & Jason Mercier

can your file Be any bigger?

>100Mb
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Old 01-04-2012, 04:30 PM   #13
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Re: PokerCast Episode 204 - PokerStars Ring Game Changes & Jason Mercier

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZENITL View Post
can your file Be any bigger?

>100Mb
TWSS
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Old 01-04-2012, 04:57 PM   #14
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Re: PokerCast Episode 204 - PokerStars Ring Game Changes & Jason Mercier

Brilliant show guys and nicely balanced discussion. Disagree on the criticism of Steve D too. He came out off the bat and said there was a net benefit to Stars' bottom line and respectfully pointed out that PokerStars is a for profit business in a competitive industry.

Personally, I think this does come down to the question Adam raised re the issue of whether mass multi-tabling regs are the clients or customers.

Imo, like it or not the mass multitabling regs amongst us are just paying customers (whom PokerStars have no obligation to please) for two reasons:

1) They would not still be at PokerStars if PokerStars did not have such an exceptional business model with reinvestment to bring in new players. PokerStars have brought in more recreational players than any other site. The mass multi-tabling pro's amongst us have only survived because PokerStars has done this and provided a platform for mass multi-tablers to exploit these players (the software to mass multi table comfortably with tracking software).

2) For better or for worse Online Poker is currently a free market (in countries where it's legal ofc). All players at all sites can talk with their feet at any time and every poker site has to consider this with every business decision they make. PokerStars have benefited from other sites getting this wrong. If there is a better option for the mass multi-tablers they will now take it and Stars will lose out. If not, they won't. Either way PokerStars are under no obligation to please a specific type of player within the player pool: tight mass multi tablers specifically.

Aside from PokerStars, who gains from the change?

Steve D answered it directly.
A: ALL players who play looser than the median loose player at the tables

Obviously, skillful players at the top of the pile like Nanonoko who make considerable money from mass multitablers probably aren't too unhappy about the changes (in the short run anyway).

Question to those of us who aren't poker freaks but do play looser over say 6 tables (and who are working hard to be better poker players):

How do you feel about the changes?
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Old 01-04-2012, 07:24 PM   #15
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Re: PokerCast Episode 204 - PokerStars Ring Game Changes & Jason Mercier

Quote:
Originally Posted by wotutalkinabaaat View Post
+
Steve D was suprisingly bad. I found him at some points to be rather bitchy and unprofessional. Sad really because normally he is great. guess the stress of the situation is getting to him.
FWIW, Steve has probably slept about 10 hours since the announced the changes in late December.
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Old 01-04-2012, 07:31 PM   #16
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Re: PokerCast Episode 204 - PokerStars Ring Game Changes & Jason Mercier

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamSchwartz View Post
TWSS
I assume this means **** wanker **** stain?
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Old 01-04-2012, 07:39 PM   #17
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Re: PokerCast Episode 204 - PokerStars Ring Game Changes & Jason Mercier

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrtrebus View Post
I assume this means **** wanker **** stain?
TWSS = that's what she said
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Old 01-04-2012, 07:47 PM   #18
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Re: PokerCast Episode 204 - PokerStars Ring Game Changes & Jason Mercier

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamSchwartz View Post
TWSS = that's what she said
Clearly this needs to be added to the official (?) list of 2+2 acronyms/abbreviations:
http://www.twoplustwo.com/acronyms.php

Last edited by jefkve; 01-04-2012 at 07:47 PM. Reason: now can we get a memes page?
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Old 01-04-2012, 07:48 PM   #19
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sup Mike and Adam, I'm listening to the show now but its frustrating to basically only hear references to high volume and recreational players like they are the only two groups affected by this. What about all the guys in between sne, sn and bronzes who dont have a high vip multipler but still suffer significant percentage reductions in benefits just because we dont play like whales?

As a low limit recreational limit and plo player who plays a couple of times a week who isnt a 11% vpiper but I do occasionally use my fold button I've done the math, ran the script and can only conclude that these changes are bad for me. The only possible benefit of all these changes I see are if the games get much better but I have my doubts that this will happen enough to beat the rake trap that is sucking limit holdem dry.

Mike and Adam, I think you did a decent job of what must have been a tough show but ultimately nothing changed for me. I can only hope that something productive happens at the player meetings....

PS steve, I did not take part in the protest but I have withdrawn my roll and now play elsewhere. My question for you is why should a limit holdem player like me return to pokerstars? (as a long time stars player and former supernova there is no need to point out obvious stuff like good software etc)

Last edited by OziBattler; 01-04-2012 at 08:00 PM.
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Old 01-04-2012, 08:28 PM   #20
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Re: PokerCast Episode 204 - PokerStars Ring Game Changes & Jason Mercier

Ozi,

I think there are lots of sub groups of players but it's only an hour segment. We tried to hit on all the macro issues mostly, as these apply to basically everyone in varying degree.

I'm also in your group fwiw. I made SN this year for the first time, but doubt I will get anywhere close (especially now with the changes) as I have other things going on.

I haven't been able to play (and beat) the limit holdem games for some time now, because of a combination of rake, opponent ability and declining limit holdem skills on my part.

I guess what I'm trying to say is we tried to talk about most of the changes in general enough terms for people to see how they would apply to them specifically. Maybe we need to do a better job making that clearer.
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Old 01-04-2012, 08:34 PM   #21
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Thanks Adam, ty for sharing, I do appreciate it.

Mike, those are joke points, dont mess with drunkern super mods
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Old 01-05-2012, 12:06 AM   #22
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Re: PokerCast Episode 204 - PokerStars Ring Game Changes & Jason Mercier

Mike mentioned that there was a lack of concern from high-volume players when the dealt method was in place, even though they don't mind the change to WC (I am paraphrasing here)

This is absolutely not the case. When the change to WC was first announced there were howls of protest demanding that this change not happen. Only after...

1) The arguments of some players in favor of WC (i.e. using logic)
2) Stars refusal to cancel the change
3) The squashing of the strikers

Did a large majority of the high-volume players come to accept WC, usually by grudgingly agreeing that it was fairer than dealt.

WRT Adam not being sure which is fairer, I think anyone doing an objective analysis would conclude that WC is fairer than dealt.
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Old 01-05-2012, 09:15 AM   #23
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Re: PokerCast Episode 204 - PokerStars Ring Game Changes & Jason Mercier

Quote:
Originally Posted by blueodum View Post
Mike mentioned that there was a lack of concern from high-volume players when the dealt method was in place, even though they don't mind the change to WC (I am paraphrasing here)

This is absolutely not the case. When the change to WC was first announced there were howls of protest demanding that this change not happen. Only after...

1) The arguments of some players in favor of WC (i.e. using logic)
2) Stars refusal to cancel the change
3) The squashing of the strikers

Did a large majority of the high-volume players come to accept WC, usually by grudgingly agreeing that it was fairer than dealt.

WRT Adam not being sure which is fairer, I think anyone doing an objective analysis would conclude that WC is fairer than dealt.
i thought this thread is/was good and relevant to the discussion:
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...92/index5.html
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Old 01-05-2012, 10:31 AM   #24
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Re: PokerCast Episode 204 - PokerStars Ring Game Changes & Jason Mercier

~30.00

Re: Who is most important to the site - net contributors or regulars?

- clearly net contributors

I agree.

Then your following discussion...
I don't agree with as a whole.

Historically - Pokerstars and its VIP program have worked to produce mass-tabling. In one very important respect - the maintenance of high turnover in $ around cash games - mass-tablers most effectively - maintain the speed of the rake being generated as a whole.
Think of it this way...whilst they do not produce as a whole as many rake events per table due to overall (on average) tightness. They do maintain more tables on the site AND many of the changes in the software have been designed to facillate this change.
It is not a big stretch to say that "rush" poker was a direct response to the possibility realised through the 24 tabling PS regular.
The gradual increase to 24 tables, the invention of 'fast tables' all those extra features Pokerstars has developed around the fixed buyin features, shortcut keys etc - came out of masstabling cash game players and their sitngo counterparts.
Most if not all of these developments and as one of its core drivers the capacity to speed up or faciliatate the increase in per table per player capacity on the site.

And the 24 tabler - is the best ally of the site.
1. The liquidity that you mentioned - which broadly means the number and availability of the games is greatest with them in the system.
2. The winrate of the mass-tabler is lower than the non mass tabling regular on average - which means that more rake events or in other words a slower loss rate for the recreational player.

Now I believe that the site will probably do less business that it has AND/OR certainly will do less business than it otherwise would have by making it less economic to play 24 tables.
Obviously if the second we will never know as it is a counterfactual hypothetical.

But as you said it is PS business and they can do as they please.

That being said - what will likely remain unclear is the net takeout of Pokerstars from this change.
Which is ultimately what most of the dispute is about.
Now here are points that I suggest that it is only about one thing - increasing the site take of the total revenue.
1. The justification of the changes by Steve D. - the cost of the removal of the US business/ the cost of European fragmentation.
Pokerstars costs has ostensibly increased - perhaps they have.

Any other justification for the motivation for the change is cover - in my opinion.

1. That this is about fairness - what about their 10 year history with respect to rake at the nano-microstakes where most of the tables are with huge rake.
2. The 'industry-standard' - Pokerstars claims on the one hand to have the lowest rake yet it still wants to go to an industry -standard?? Really they want us to hold them or hold themselves to others in the industry - really.

Trojan horses.
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Old 01-05-2012, 10:32 AM   #25
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Re: PokerCast Episode 204 - PokerStars Ring Game Changes & Jason Mercier

'Good faith'

Give me a break.

What else can we do?
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