Episode #499 - July 9th, 2018

Live from the Two Plus Two Studios - This week on the Pokercast: The most important tournament of the year is well underway and we’ve got more stories of bad behaviour from the one and only Poker Brat. To begin Terrence has been down in Vegas for a couple of weeks and has got a trip report, plus an upcoming fight to announce! In ICYMI we break down the main event so far including the amazing performance of Michael Mizrachi, the not so amazing performance of Phil Hellmuth and some twitter beef with Vanessa Selbst. The guys finish off the show with some strategy talk from Terrence’s day 1 of the main plus what Jason Koon had to say about some hands!

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Christ lads I've not even finished the last one.

Er I mean first.

Clayton's H.O.R.S.E.

What’s the chance the Russian dude doesn’t appreciate the significance of the N word in the West and is just using some banter he saw in rap videos?

I’m with TC on that one - I want to know more before I think a ban is in order.

BTW - Got to agree with Adam. N word? Show him the door. Also agree with T. If you are going to show him the door give him back the buy- in.

I know this is going to be an unpopular take, but I'm playing devil's advocate here, if you want the N word to be the taboo of taboo, stop using it yourself.
The C word is seen as far more taboo across all ethnicities. Would that get a DQ? I'm going to say it wouldn't.
I heard a lot more gasps in the cinema when the C word was used in American Beauty than in any movie when the N word was uttered.

FWIW, I'm fine with the DQ. I also wouldn't be surprised if Hawkins is laughing about it inside.

Edit: The C word is a weird one. If I won a pot and my opponent said, 'You C', I'd be angry. If my opponent said, 'You lucky C', I'd brush it off as somewhat amusing. Language is a funny thing and really can't be judged without 100% knowledge of intent.

This was my first thought. It could easily be the case that he's unaware of its connotation outside of how it's used in popular media (like Denzel Washington's use of "my N-!" in "Training Day" not even directed at a black person).

Similarly, I once heard some Latino boys around 7 or 8 years old playing in a swimming pool calling each other the N-word. From context and tone, it was pretty clear that they didn't even know it had a negative connotation; it's just something you call your homies. Yeah, someone should pull them aside and explain it, but there was no apparent malice.

Westerners might similarly get into trouble not realizing the gravity of calling someone a pig or dog in some Middle Eastern cultures. A certain incident with a U.S. military advisor training Iraqis and telling them they were tenacious like a bulldog comes to mind. He meant it as a positive attribute!

I agree with other posters that it all comes down to intent, which actually means I have to go with Adam here.

If the guy speaks English, pretty sure chance he knows the implications of the n-word. Perhaps Jack could talk to him to try to get a sense of the intent to be sure. If the guy vigorously protests and says he had no idea and wants to apologize, then maybe he could stay, but I think that is unlikely.

And T, come on man you know there is a massive difference between the n word and mofo. Verbally directing the n word to someone is a laser beam of racial hate and I think DQing is saying, there is no place for that in the spririt of the tournament they are running. I don't feel a penalty sends that same message.

Minor point, but I think refunding is fine, but if he has less equity than he started with, then he should get that proportional equity back from the buy-in. (so a short stack can't just use the n-word in a later tournament to get their buy in back).

There should be a George Carlin like list of unspeakable words:

N***er
Fa**ot
D**e
C**t


Also, just noticed this was Ep #499.

Congratulations in advance. 500 Episodes--Awesome

Terrence was so far off in his understanding of the n-word situation that it was beyond cringe and downright embarrassing. Felt the urge to finally stop listening but Adam saved the day by explaining the obvious, relieving some of my compulsion to bounce notwithstanding just having lost a ton of respect for the illustrious TChan. Comparing its usage by a white person to saying m*********r shows a striking amount of ignorance. The strident tone of his remarks on the subject was surprising and annoying AF.

I don't post here often and want to start off by saying that I love the show. Terrence is of course very intelligent and articulate and I agree with almost everything he says on most the topics you guys cover. But I echo the sentiment that I disagree with his take on the racial slur and found that segment pretty excruciating to listen to. As a general rule in life, you never want to be on the side of the white guy using the n-word.

Heh. I agree with TChan. Apparently the villain was given a TWO LEVEL penalty!! Thats insane

But, the most telling thing about this conversation was that the pokercasters had no problem saying “Mother ****er” multiple times yet couldnt utter the “n word”.

Speaks volumes...


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I agree with TChan that DQing is too extreme. Interesting that all the comments are about that one specific topic.

I thought some of the comments about the hellmuth **** were pretty on point. I love poker, but I’ve always been a home game/online player. Casinos often sound like a cesspit the likes of which I struggle to comprehend. No other activity i can think of that I do now or have done in the past would ever feature a comment like the abortion one from a couple of weeks ago. Ditto hellmuth’s behaviour. When I hear stuff like that, or listen to someone like William kassouf, I wonder why anyone would ever voluntarily subject themselves to a situation where that sort of **** is accepted.

I think it would be a useful service for somebody to transcribe that exchange for Terrence to read and reflect upon. Whether DQ was an appropriate penalty or not is debatable, and TCHan prefaced his remarks by stating that he agreed a strong penalty was required. It was the striking ignorance of several other comments that I found stunning.

Take my reaction for what it's worth. But I thought this was important enough to comment on that I went to great lengths just to post in this thread (reset my password, access an old e-mail address, etc). If I didn't have a busy family life and legal practice, i.e. was still a 20 something poker bum, I'd take the time to break down the specifics. Trust me, however, that from my perspective, Terrence's comments were truly remarkable.

I have nothing against Terrence personally. In fact, we have several friends in common and have run in adjacent circles for years. I know he is a smart and thoughtful person and greatly appreciate his continued involvement with the Pokercast. I do feel strongly, however, that he should mindfully review the substance of what he said on this episode and report back to us. If he finds nothing in that exchange with Adam to walk back, I will need to reconsider whether to continue listening.

This.

I actually thought the initial penalty was too light. There are words that just shouldn't be used, and no I'm not getting into the "Well, no one should use it" argument. There are words that cultures can use among themselves that outsiders simply can't. MFer is a phrase so common it barely registers with me and while I've called my boss it I wouldn't say it to say a cop. I fully support kicking the player out without giving him his buy in back. My only problem was the players he took pots off after saying it now being shorter stacked since he should have been kicked after the statement.

It's as far as I could get in before WSOP came back on.

+1

The fact that Terrence is asking "what's the difference between calling someone X or calling them Y" when he can't even say one of the words out loud pretty much answers the question.

Agree a DQ is too extreme, FWIW, but then again I'm white so...

I don’t think anybody understands enough about every culture involved in the whole mess to know what degree of right and wrong is involved at any level.

I think TChan has his own understanding of it.

I think there a lot of triggers that blind people.

What seems in some ways to be very simple is very complicated.

You need to know what that word meant to the person who said it to judge their intent.

As far as the C word goes, it means nothing to me, equivalent to calling someone a dick, except a dick is out there pushing buttons. An MF is the receptical of my anger, someone who has successfully pushed buttons.

MF means nimrod, which is pretty nasty, but it wouldn’t have any real bite unless you explicitly broke that act down, like, “Every night you undress and then...” which would just make me laugh if someone took the energy to deliver that.

receptacle?

Guys, while I will readily grant that I am not a sociologist, grammarian, and regardless of whether or not mf*er, c**t, n****r etc is the numero uno most offensive word in the English language, I'll merely re-phrase to something that my friend messaged me, which is likely a more accurate statement than whatever it was I originally said:

Even if the n-word is the absolute worst word in the English language or any language, I don't believe it warrants ejection from the tournament. I don't believe any singular word without context* is really worth ejection from a tournament. I think only actions should result in ejection from a tournament.


* e.g. yelling "BOMB!" or "FIRE!" to cause a panic

this episode of the pokercast was the most pokercasty episode in about a year

great job with lots of poker content and no reliance on the mailbag

I was also surprised at the ignorance of Terrance’s comments, especially comparing the words MFer and N-word. When you live in America, you are usually aware of the deep seated history the N-word has. Maybe, if a white guy said the word in a room full of black men, it wouldn’t be that threatening. But a black guy hearing it in a big room full of white folk that don’t find it a big deal, that changes things quite a bit. Maybe you have to experience it to understand it.

That said, I think that, either a rule spelling out the infraction and consequence for breaking the infraction needs to be referenced if you are going to expel a player from the tournament, or the expelled player should get a refund. Either way, there is no place in the tournament for that behavior.

Different situation, but highly entertaining other example of Hellmuth (and others) going nuts in a hand with others still to act behind.