Im interested in checking out some of the content on PLOQuickPro but im not sure where I should start. There are a number of different courses/guides available on there but they aren't too clearly marked so im just wondering what a good starting point is for someone like me.

I have experience with PLO but my fundamental game I believe is lacking. I read Jeff Hwang's PLO book afew years back and absorbed most of those concepts. I did not get around to the second edition of the book so I feel like I am missing some of the more "advanced" fundamentals in there... I have a ton of experience with NL and MTTs and have probably played at least 25k+ hands of PLO lifetime.

Where is a good jumping point on PLOQuickPro?
What kind of road maps are people following who have a similar experience than me?
Is the PLO QuickPro Win $1k the best place to start?

(I apologize if this is the wrong place, but I figured this was a good place to start)

Cheers!

"Win 1k" is the place to go. Great stuff in there. I already understand PLO concepts much better having gone through the modules.

Overpriced garbage. The guy who has created that has just copied all his content from previous people. You can find everything he discusses a lot cheaper elsewhere. His site is also a scam looking site, you can't even purchase what you want, it goes to some other shady (recorded) seminar which he tries to sell you more than just what you wanted initially.

In case you are wondering:
Jeff Hwang books
PLO Donkr plo article
DC Videos (plo theory)

lol. A scam is giving you something less or different from what you paid for. What you described above is called upselling, and it has been around since....people started selling ****.

Hey Pip!

Thanks so much for checking out the site - I'm thrilled to help you with your game!

Definitely start with either Win1k or the QuickPro Manual. Given what you told me, you'll be blown away by the materials in those programs - and it'll build a good foundation for you to think about the game from a structural standpoint - so you can adjust to online vs live, cash game vs tournament, and short stack vs deep stack.

As always, please don't hesitate to write here or message me personally if there's something else I can answer for you. Look forward to helping you with your game!

GLGL

John

Hey Mario!

Thanks for checking out the site - I'm sorry you were disappointed with the Win1k webinar. What's something you felt like we could've expanded on more?

I respect your opinion - but I disagree that my products are overpriced. I have full length curriculums ranging from $97 to $497. These are competitively priced with other training sites, and what's best about our stuff is you have lifetime access to the training. Since the courses are so targeted and in depth, they maintain their longevity so often we've found people coming back to the videos years after they've combed through the videos and PDF's.

Other sites with a subscription model have 1000's of videos that take hundreds of hours to sift through. My policy is to maintain zero filler time - most people who play poker are not full time players, so they want to feel confident knowing that the time they devote to "off the felt learning" is worthwhile - and mine definitely is!

The other books/videos you mentioned are quite good - I've been through them myself and recommend my students go through them too. In fact I've even recorded videos on DC and am proud of those. But admittedly I've put hundreds more hours into the curriculums I host on my site, so I think there's a lot of value in giving them a peek.

I also take on all the risk for people who purchase my courses with refund policies like the "Freeroll Guarantee" on Win1k. If you purchase Win1k and aren't exceptionally satisfied, not only do I refund your money but I also give you $100 to spend on a training site of your choice. Because I want to prove that I just want you to succeed in PLO - even if it's not with me!

Anyhow - I'm grateful you checked out the site, and if you'd like to take your game to the next level, I'll be here to help. Feel free to write here or message me anytime.

GLGL

John

I don't think what you are doing is a scam but the website really gives off that vibe.

You really need to re-design it. I listened to the latest podcast and thought I would check out the win 1k thing as Terrence talked about doing it. I just wanted to see a price for that content and what was included and all i can seem to do is sign up for a webinar (super limited places!!! this really does make it feel like you are about to get ripped off) which I have zero interest in.

Find a good web designer and make your site clean and easy to navigate and not look like a scam from the mid 2000s.

I know this sounds like harsh criticism but you come across like an ok guy on the show and this is meant as genuine advice not just to bash you.

I would guess that at least 50% of the people who visit your website don't come back after 5 minutes on there through frustration with the site design who might very well like the content you provide

I usually don't post but got to support Quickpro, although people may not enjoy how the website comes off the content is very good. I can say from experience working with the material that it has changed me from a breakeven PLO player to a pretty big winner in the live games I play.

Hey Big Toe,

Really appreciate your feedback, and for checking out the site. I'm grateful for the honesty, and even agree with some of what you're saying.

Many of the points you make (the flow of the site, where the content is located) has encouraged me to redesign the site. I'd love to have your feedback once the new redesign is up. Could you DM me your email address or Skype info so I can shoot you a message once it's up? It will be ready to go by this week, and I'd love to get some fresh eyes on it to see how much of an improvement there is.

Thanks again for posting - and for listening to the podcast.

GLGL,

John

John,

Thanks for being so receptive of the criticism here, even the fairly pointed ones. As a guy who once had a career in serving poker players, it is a tough job, and you've handled it well!

I admit I was also super turned off by the long-form marketing page. I think everyone hates these pages. The problem is that they actually work in a lot of contexts. Research has shown them to be fairly effective for certain products. We don't know, however, whether poker strategy courses are one such product, and it is a reasonable assumption that poker players are a bit more on-guard than the average person when it comes to sniffing out a perceived "scam".

So my advice to you would be to do some A/B testing on the landing page.

On the videos themselves: They are awesome. One tweak I would suggest is the ability to go at 1.25x or 1.5x speed. I think your speaking cadence is excellent, but I sometimes want to review the same material that I've looked at before, but not spend a whole hour on it.

Additionally, when doing hand history review, there's no need to narrate/recap the action once it's happened visually, e.g. "on the turn, the six of spades rolls off, and we check it over to the villain, who puts out a weak bet of 1/3 pot". It's natural to narrate that action (it's how we would tell a friend the story), but we can see all of that already, because we're watching the screen. Instead, you could go directly to how the 6s is a good card for us to semi-bluff because it's unlikely to have connected with our opponent's range given the action so far.

Those two items would make getting through the courses just slightly more efficient and improve the product from a 9 to a 10, imo!

Agree with the website issues, and also the non-stop and increasingly aggressive emails. I actually snapped on John and emailed him directly with my frustrations. He couldn't have been more professional and helpful in his responses.

Turned the experience around, for sure. I still get the emails, but its easier to tolerate when you know there is a decent person (at least seemingly) at the other end, and like T said, the aggro marketing is likely effective overall.

Hey there, seems like a good thread for feedback on PLOquickPro. So my 2c as a costumer:

I mostly agree with the criticism here - the e-mails and webinar really suck, but if it sells, it sells - however, not to me. The website is really chaotic, somehow I cant find something I once found (or maybe I need to opt in on another round of emails again, dunno), and its annoying (looking forward to the new design though). These things actually discouraged me to buy more stuff on the site as I dont expect serious learning site to behave like this (mostly the "webinar" - there was nothing new thats not in the free section of the site, just a lot of selfadvertising and marketing).


That said, I have to say I love your free materials and I think I learned a lot (cant tell how old the materials are though -probably will find after moving up ) and there is big value there (I entered the site after 2months of playing PLO after X years of playing NLH on midstakes). And I mean it. I d love to continue educating and even connecting with players around my level -maybe through this site.
So, after discovering this site and first materials (which happened randomly), I was sure I ll spend my money there, even though the courses seemed (and still seem) really expensive. After the following negative experience I just bought the 3bet mastery, mostly because I dont just want to be a cheap bastarded who downloaded everything for free and ran off - so a thank you. I went through the 4 videos in the course and imho its about the same education value as the free videos. Its not so basic anymore, however it does seem pretty brief and short (3bet spots in 2 hours?). This also discourages me from investing into other courses.

If the site develops and maybe changes its model a little (networking/private coaching possibilities/real webinars/more details about courses/etc..) - you got me again. Until then, I ll probably spend my time digging through something else.

Anybody else attented the webinar tonight? How did you like it? Was I the only one having issue with my connection, as he never answered any of my questions in the chat, he kept on skipping them. Even when it was quiet and he said he was waiting for more questions, he kept skipping mine.

This sounds exactly like I expected as I had the exact same issue when I attended a webinar a couple of weeks back... Heres what I suspect happens. These webinars are prerecorded and the people asking questions are actually just bots that JB or the site admin has programmed. I can tell you as well that I asked 3 questions, none of them were answered. My questions I felt were relevant but he immediately would answer questions that would allow him to talk about his PLO Qucik Pro band. Don't get me wrong, I understand you need to do things like this because how appetizing (and cost efficient) is a webinar with 3 people, but it just seems like a misrepresentation... Please correct me if im wrong John but im sure these are all prerecorded?

I started watching the webinars and reading the two free pdf files he sent out. The content is enough to make this beginner/fish/rec player at least think more about the game rather than just clicking buttons. I appreciate the content that is offered up to peak my interest in PLO.

However, the email barrage is just too much. I have a life. Poker is supposed to be fun and relaxing for me, not sifting through a dozen emails all harping on me to buy stuff. I get it, PLOQP is a business and the products probably are worth the money to someone who puts in the hours. However, for someone who is a rec who plays maybe an hour or three a week (WSOP.com doesn't exactly have a ton of PLO games at the micro-micro stakes running that often), it's just too much.

John, you asked about the skill level, etc. upon signup. Perhaps tailor your email messaging to the level too. A rec doesn't need the hard sell right away (or the incessant email traffic). Maybe in 5-10 yrs when I retire I will look into your product more seriously as I'll have enough time to devote to study it, but for now I can handle one webinar type thing a week.

Oh, and the limited time offer on products after the webinar is over is pure 'infomercial' worthy tactics. My wife was listening off to the side and said: "This sounds like a scam to me." All that was missing was someone doing cute illustrations on a whiteboard...TBH, I'd agree with her if it wasn't for what I've heard you talk about on the show. Perhaps turn the dial down from '11' to maybe '6' on the pressure sales technique?

Thanks for supporting the show and giving your insight on hands. It's fun to listen to while commuting.

Tried to sign-up for the Win1k but couldn't check out once I had put in all my details. Not sure if it was just me...

Got tired of trying so gave up.

Fwiw, I'm not keen on the heavy marketing either. I think you are the coach for bestpokercoaching. I was going to sign up to that but the heavy marketing in forums/emails/any website that it's mentioned totally put me off.

Hey man!

Just sent you a PM - but also wanted to answer here too.

Thanks a lot for visiting the site, and for your interest in Win1k - I'm sorry you were experiencing checkout problems, but you can email me at John@PLOQuickPro.com and I'll be sure to get it all set up. I'll even give you $100 off to make up for the inconvenience.

As for the frequency of emails - sure I understand your thoughts. Really appreciate the feedback, and let me know if you have any other questions.

Thanks!

John

This would be awesome.

John - what do I get from paying you $500 that I wouldn't get from studying PLO in my own time via free/cheaper resources like DeucesCracked, forums, Donkr's articles, Hwang's book?

Also I have to +1 the above - the site needs a serious overhaul. It's kind of a mess to navigate, it gives off a real pyramid scheme vibe and the unskippable intro videos (which imo ramble too much anyway) are really off-putting. To be totally honest, I wouldn't have even considered it had the PokerCast crew not recommended it so heartily.

Hey 3quilibrium!

Thanks for taking the time to provide feedback - I appreciate the critiques, and COMPLETELY agree that we're in desperate need of a site redesign...

Due partially due to feedback in this thread and also to give our customers a better experience in the courses, we've been working on a complete site redesign the last couple of months.

We should be ready to go within the week, but if you'd like a preview, please click here.

http://www.ploquickpro.com/v1/brandviva/

Let me know what you think - still difficult to navigate? Still off-putting and feel like a pyramid scheme? Or completely different now?

As to your question about the added value you get from one of my courses to one of DC's - look I provide good value in those DC vids - but frankly I put very little time into them and it's just me basically talking about random spots that come up in live play videos and what I believe I would do (valuable, surely. Most efficient? No.)

My PLO QuickPro curriculums took me YEARS to create - and for good reason. They're broken down into modules containing in depth video tutorials, PDF's, handouts, quizzes, and hand history reviews that highlight and break down the most common trouble areas for both myself and my students - and how to fix them.

Will you get better watching those cheaper resources you named? Sure. As fast? No. Besides, I have a 30 day refund guarantee. If this stuff isn't the best PLO content you've seen - I'll give you your money back no problem (I practically never have refunds), and frankly I'd be shocked if the knowledge you gain from here doesn't pay for itself 100x over.

Hopefully this helps - as always, you can email me personally if you have any other questions. john@ploquickpro.com

GLGL

John

His webinar is fake, it is not live. Just thought I'd point that out. All designed to scam you into making a purchase, as I stated before already!

"Scam" you into making a purchase? C'mon man. You're entitled to your opinion of course but this is just false.

I offer 30 days money back complete refund if this isn't the best PLO materials you've ever seen. For my Win1k program I even GIVE you $100 cash to purchase other PLO products if you're not completely satisfied - just because I'm passionate about coaching and care about helping people improve their games and move up in stakes.

Explain to me how this is a scam?

How do you stop people from simply copying everything in Win1k then just ask for a refund after 30 days?

The scam part. Well you are lying about that webinar. You are misleading potential customers with this so called webinar, then trying to make them purchase several plo programs. At least that's how it was last time I went through that webinar. I was interested in a particular product but you tried to have me buy several, not only that but you completely ignored my questions. It was then that I realized that the webinar was fake. That's misleading and scammy!

Well you might think that your products are fairly priced. To be honest, how have you come to that conclusion. How have you tested to see that your product is indeed fairly priced. You have nothing to go on, because nobody has such a course for sale. I mean if you had competition and they were selling for a similar price, I could get on board with the pricing. Take a look over at Udemy to see just how cheaply courses actually are. $400 is robbery in my opinion.

All your material can be found in different places, correct. One just needs to look, plo books and training videos. Jeff Hwang's book cost $20 and part of your course is based on his book. Add 1 month of training videos form DC (you can dl the entire plo theory and practical videos (from all coaches)for 1 months subscription, best deal in the world, those guys are legit trying to help people) for $25 or w/e and I guarantee that I have more and better study material than your Win1k program. Sure I have to work more, watch more videos but it's all in those videos and books!

Everyone assigns value differently. You are looking strictly at price, rather than opportunity cost. In theory, could someone spend 100's of hours downloading the videos from every training site and reading every PLO book and gain the same knowledge I've packed into Win1k?

Sure, it's possible. To me, 1000 hours of my time is worth more than $500, but to you perhaps it's not. It's the same reason why a plane ticket costs more than a bus pass, no?

I'm a big believer in free markets. If my stuff is priced too high then nobody will buy it.. But this course (and the others like it on QP) have sold very well, so the market believes they are high value and priced appropriately.

Win1k is absolutely competitively priced. You have lifetime access to my course. You have lifetime access to a forum that includes high stakes crushers, WSOP champions, and SCOOP champions. A yearly subscription to Run It Once is $1200 - and to DeucesCracked is $360. Could you sign up for one month and download all their vids? Um yea.. You could, but wouldn't that make you sort of a hit and running scammer

Udemy - there is one course for Omaha on Udemy for $50 - I've seen the outline for it. Comparing Win1k to a course on Udemy is laughable.

Honestly to me, it sounds like you've been treading water for a long time playing the micros, and you're looking for a cheap, "magic-bullet" type of method for increasing your winrate and moving up in stakes. My courses and teaching philosophy are, frankly, not for these types of players, so I believe it's good that you didn't make the decision to buy. Perhaps you should stick to the methods you listed above for continuing to improve your game (i.e., never investing more than a few bucks in your game and sticking to the free/cheap stuff), especially if it's working for you.

Today though, just in case you want to take PLO seriously and invest more into your game, I'm going to propose a challenge. I'll give you free access to Win1k (it's clear you haven't been through the course, otherwise you wouldn't be making the comments), as long as you document your feedback and results for it in this thread. You must actually post your notes from the lessons and your progress while grinding here though, to prove you've done it.

Are you up for it? DM me your info and I'll get you set up.

John

VG