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Old 10-26-2011, 02:32 PM   #26
bemyguest
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Re: 10 short questions for Poker Stars

Thats why i say i am not able to colect 100 000 all in situation. Maybe in a lifetime. I understand my 100K hand sample does not contain only all in situations. Thats why more data is necesary.

Cigital is private company and is funded by PS for those research. Just look at Harward profesors report on economicl situation in Icland few months prior to colapse. It was super optimistical view and BTW it was funded from Iceland banks pockets. Just dont be naive.

"Cigital analyzed the source code, entropy sources and documentation for PokerStars' RNG implementation. In addition, a sample RNG output stream provided by PokerStars was subjected to—and passed—FIPS 140-2 style testing. "

Botom line, do you realyse why you even arguing with me? I mean if solid transpearent study of PS RNG would be made and it concluded everything is fine it would be great marketing tool in hands of PS. It would help atract more players and create atmosphere of trust. If results would show anomality then we would have not biased data to think about. Its win-win situation for costumer.
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Old 10-26-2011, 03:35 PM   #27
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Re: 10 short questions for Poker Stars

OK. This now officialy turned into a "Poker Pokerstars is rigged" debate.

Man, I wasted my time.

/Lock thread
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Old 10-26-2011, 04:00 PM   #28
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Re: 10 short questions for Poker Stars

Nice strategy. You take 1 question. Ask me to provide data. Turn it into disccusion and ask to lock thread. I dont even care. When i write something i can back it up. And BTW, nise solution to hide all thread you dont like. Do it. I mean maybe its common in China or North Korea.
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Old 10-26-2011, 04:39 PM   #29
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Re: 10 short questions for Poker Stars

Quote:
Originally Posted by bemyguest View Post
Nice strategy. You take 1 question. Ask me to provide data. Turn it into disccusion and ask to lock thread. I dont even care. When i write something i can back it up. And BTW, nise solution to hide all thread you dont like. Do it. I mean maybe its common in China or North Korea.
I answered all your trivial questions. You didn't like the answers. Which is not my problem.

I never asked you for data. Read the thread. That was a different poster. I don't even care for your data because it's insignificant.

Your problem is that you don't understand variance. Running under ev like you did over your tiny samplesize of 100k is absolutely standard.

Sorry if that doesn't make you happy.

Bye. Have a happy life.
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Old 10-27-2011, 01:33 AM   #30
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Re: 10 short questions for Poker Stars

Is it just me, or did this guys writing style change dramatically from the first post to now?
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Old 10-27-2011, 03:11 AM   #31
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Re: 10 short questions for Poker Stars

Dont know what you even mean. My first post was made when i played on FTP. Played more then 35K sngs and had silverstar in sharkscope leaderbeard. Now i played close to 10K sngs on PS and it lets me to compare many aspects of those rooms. I played more then 2 millions hands of poker on different sites lifetime and actualy won 6 digits. Now, when competition between two bigest sites gone its vital to discuss problems. Dont know why i am atacked here.
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Old 10-27-2011, 10:58 AM   #32
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Re: 10 short questions for Poker Stars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palikari View Post
I answered all your trivial questions. You didn't like the answers. Which is not my problem.

I never asked you for data. Read the thread. That was a different poster. I don't even care for your data because it's insignificant.

Your problem is that you don't understand variance. Running under ev like you did over your tiny samplesize of 100k is absolutely standard.

Sorry if that doesn't make you happy.

Bye. Have a happy life.
Why are you raging dude. The OP is making a good point that pokerstars should be held to account. They are not the emperor of the universe u know. And some random rager not answering the questions isn't enough.
If you calm down alittle you will realise that since pokerstars is essentially a monopoly now it is MORE important that these questions are asked.
You act like he is insulting your mum or something.
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Old 10-27-2011, 12:36 PM   #33
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Re: 10 short questions for Poker Stars

Some people will never believe anything, you can always say that the government is run by aliens that invaded us in the 50s and it's all one huge conspiracy.

Otherwise you can talk to:

http://www.gov.im/gambling/

Alternatively try the governments of all the other regulated markets where the law has an eye on poker operators. For PokerStars that is France, Italy, Estonia, Belgium and the UK.

Of course they can all be involved in an elaborate international conspiracy to make you loose money playing poker, but maybe that's not the case and you might start believing the answers you get from all sides.

Everybody in this thread and in the other thread made a lot of sense, just read the posts again, talk to the authorities that regulate the markets and then have a good think about everything.

PS: Other than in online poker, when you play at a casino, you have no hand history or anything to analyse. If a dealer would cheat you, you had no way to proof it, the same goes for collusion. Yet I never read about "Live Poker is rigged...".
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Old 10-28-2011, 02:03 AM   #34
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Re: 10 short questions for Poker Stars

The point he makes is valid. The talking heads in support say what they are told to say in response to emails. An independent audit of the RNG would not, however, expose 3 lines of code in a 100,000 line program that intimate in any way a mathematical favoritism of the bigger stack.

The problem is and will remain the issue that the deck is not set before the deal. PS stating such things as (paraphrased) 'even mouse action influences the way the cards drop' does little to inspire confidence.
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Old 10-28-2011, 09:09 AM   #35
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Re: 10 short questions for Poker Stars

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Originally Posted by RedLetterman View Post
The point he makes is valid. The talking heads in support say what they are told to say in response to emails. An independent audit of the RNG would not, however, expose 3 lines of code in a 100,000 line program that intimate in any way a mathematical favoritism of the bigger stack.
I think it's way more than 100 000 lines of code.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedLetterman View Post
The problem is and will remain the issue that the deck is not set before the deal. PS stating such things as (paraphrased) 'even mouse action influences the way the cards drop' does little to inspire confidence.
Agreed that it is unsual and not intuitive, but it might me harder to hack.
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Old 10-28-2011, 09:22 AM   #36
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Re: 10 short questions for Poker Stars

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Originally Posted by Niela View Post
Some people will never believe anything, you can always say that the government is run by aliens that invaded us in the 50s and it's all one huge conspiracy.

Otherwise you can talk to:

http://www.gov.im/gambling/

Alternatively try the governments of all the other regulated markets where the law has an eye on poker operators. For PokerStars that is France, Italy, Estonia, Belgium and the UK.

Of course they can all be involved in an elaborate international conspiracy to make you loose money playing poker, but maybe that's not the case and you might start believing the answers you get from all sides.

Everybody in this thread and in the other thread made a lot of sense, just read the posts again, talk to the authorities that regulate the markets and then have a good think about everything.

PS: Other than in online poker, when you play at a casino, you have no hand history or anything to analyse. If a dealer would cheat you, you had no way to proof it, the same goes for collusion. Yet I never read about "Live Poker is rigged...".
That is the core of this issue. No gambling comissions has right to do it. This is preaty sick. Its long writing again, but in short i know for a fact beeing a costumer of PS i have to provide facts that i was cheated to gambling comissions for them to actualy take actions. And it will never happen becouse in case of RNG its almost unreal to have sufficient sample for one player to profe anything. Specialy when deviation can be made realy small in terms of HH statistics but huge in terms of actual money lost/won. Just common sence - such thing should be done as offten as it is necesary and by people without ANY insentives to be biased. Gambling comissions should be able to hire experts and ask for all data they need. But nothing happens despite all problems on other sites and general concerns. Like i said we are coming back to begining of my thread.

And now disscusion is only on independent autid. I am not saying PS is rigged for sure. I am saying its sickening such huge site with 60+ billions HH stored, billions $ in deposits and cashouts during those years, licenses in 5 Europe countryes (if we count Belgium) and nobody cares to do that. Thats my issue. PS NEVER HAD INDEPENDENT AUDIT. Cigital was private company payed to make research on PS terms. Its not independent audit how ever you look at this.

P.S. Dont want to sound paranoid. Op started disccusion. I just provided data. Its other 9 questions that bothers me to.

Last edited by bemyguest; 10-28-2011 at 09:31 AM.
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Old 10-28-2011, 04:42 PM   #37
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Re: 10 short questions for Poker Stars

Quote:
Originally Posted by bemyguest View Post
Hi,

sorry for my english in advance. Pokercast is great show but here are 10 short question i would ask Poker Stars representatives:

1. Why your company is registrated in offshore zone?

2. Who owns and runs this company?

3. Why billion dollars company doesn't even have phone number for customers?

4. Would you trust your money with company beeing charged for money loundering?

5. Why company hides last names of its representatives?

6. Does Poker Stars understands that bigest markets they operate in (Germany, Russia, Australia etc.) has national regulation strictly forbiding providing online gambling services?

7. Will Poker Stars be able to keep licenses in Italy, France and Estonia if DOJ proves charges in court?

8. Poker Stars has sufficient funds to pay possible fines?

9. Is there any chance for Poker Stars to get new license anywhere in the world today?

10. Why you never had independent audit of your site RNG despite 60 billions HH stored?

You talk a lot about FTP in great details. I like that a lot. But never heard same questions asked PS people you actualy have access to. Only prepaid promo chat about WCOOP or something like that.
Subject for the 200th show?
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Old 10-30-2011, 10:57 AM   #38
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Re: 10 short questions for Poker Stars

Quote:
Originally Posted by bemyguest View Post
...Thats my issue. PS NEVER HAD INDEPENDENT AUDIT. Cigital was private company payed to make research on PS terms. Its not independent audit how ever you look at this...
What do you actually mean by "independent audit" here?

It is normal in the business world for companies to hire auditors. That's how that system works.

How would your "independent audit" differ from the existing audit, and what problems would it fix?
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Old 10-30-2011, 03:00 PM   #39
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Re: 10 short questions for Poker Stars

I think this list of questions can be very important when taken in the right context. They all touch on things that I've thought about at some point, and its not that comforting when the answer to some of them is "who the hell knows??".
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Old 10-30-2011, 03:03 PM   #40
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Re: 10 short questions for Poker Stars

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Originally Posted by uberkuber View Post
I think it's way more than 100 000 lines of code.



Agreed that it is unsual and not intuitive, but it might me harder to hack.
They just use random noise for number generating. I suspect that it sounds scary to have mouse movements play a roll, but on a large enough scale this is insignificantly different from pure randomness.
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Old 10-31-2011, 03:16 AM   #41
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Re: 10 short questions for Poker Stars

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Hi,
3. Why billion dollars company doesn't even have phone number for customers?
This is surprisingly standard. Try to call customer support for Microsoft or Google unless you are a major customer, or have a paid support contract.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bemyguest View Post
5. Why company hides last names of its representatives?
This is _really_ standard. I don't know of any support lines that will provide surnames. It's an OH&S issue in many sectors, far to many mentally unstable people out there making death threats.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bemyguest View Post
6. Does Poker Stars understands that bigest markets they operate in (Germany, Russia, Australia etc.) has national regulation strictly forbiding providing online gambling services?
I don't know the specifics of legislation or if PokerStars 'legally' complies, but online gambling is certainly legal in Australia.
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Old 10-31-2011, 04:09 AM   #42
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Re: 10 short questions for Poker Stars

Quote:
Originally Posted by bemyguest View Post
I play only on Stars right now but some things makes me wonder. Returning to my old job soon and by the way i work as a journalist. Dont understand why PS is painted is such bright colours when so many issues are preaty obvious if you pay atention. Sucks not to have any deasent alternative at the moment.
A journalist, perhaps. Hopefully not an editor, though.
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Old 10-31-2011, 11:39 AM   #43
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Re: 10 short questions for Poker Stars

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Originally Posted by Disinterested View Post
You act like he is insulting your mum or something.
OP insulted my intelligence. That's worse

Nah, you're right. I was just upset I wasted my time in answering these trivial questions. Which he didn't even bother to comment btw. And then OP proves his whole post is just a smoke grenade to hide the fact that OP is a rigtard.
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Old 10-31-2011, 11:49 AM   #44
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Re: 10 short questions for Poker Stars

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Originally Posted by Palikari View Post
OP insulted my intelligence. That's worse

Nah, you're right. I was just upset I wasted my time in answering these trivial questions. Which he didn't even bother to comment btw. And then OP proves his whole post is just a smoke grenade to hide the fact that OP is a rigtard.
LOL, i mean you waisted another 2 min to read and post. People who comes to threads to write how annoyng and time consuming it is for them to participate in disscusions always makes me wonder
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Old 10-31-2011, 11:51 AM   #45
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Re: 10 short questions for Poker Stars

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Originally Posted by bemyguest View Post
LOL, i mean you waisted another 2 min to read and post. People who comes to threads to write how annoyng and time consuming it is for them to participate in disscusions always makes me wonder
IMO, this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
What do you actually mean by "independent audit" here?

It is normal in the business world for companies to hire auditors. That's how that system works.

How would your "independent audit" differ from the existing audit, and what problems would it fix?
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Old 10-31-2011, 12:01 PM   #46
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Re: 10 short questions for Poker Stars

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Originally Posted by Wilbury Twist View Post
A journalist, perhaps. Hopefully not an editor, though.
Yeah, maybe my english is bad. Not my native language and everybody can see it for sure. Poker is not alternative to work in media to me. But you did very "journalistic" thing - took 2 quates and combined to make false conclusions. When i talked about alternatives i was talking just about poker. Game will never be alternative to education, proffesion, family, sport etc. I did it for a living (btw not on PS) never compleatly leaving my proffesion. I just said it sucks not to have deasent alternative to PS right now. No doubts PS is by far bigest player on market at this time. Thats why bussines standarts for this site should be highest.
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Old 10-31-2011, 12:13 PM   #47
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Re: 10 short questions for Poker Stars

1.This is surprisingly standard. Try to call customer support for Microsoft or Google unless you are a major customer, or have a paid support contract.

2.This is _really_ standard. I don't know of any support lines that will provide surnames. It's an OH&S issue in many sectors, far to many mentally unstable people out there making death threats.

3. I don't know the specifics of legislation or if PokerStars 'legally' complies, but online gambling is certainly legal in Australia.



1. Google:

"1600 Amphitheatre Parkway Mountain View CA 94043
Tel. nr. +1 650-253-0000
Faks. +1 650-253-0001" and many more...

2. Not talking about support people. Taking about heads that represents PS in media. It would be standart for you to see or hear - now Bill G will present new update on Microsoft Windows or John S will coment future plans on Google?

3. "What is the IGA?
In 2001 the Interactive Gambling Act (IGA) was passed by the Parliament for the purpose of protecting the Australian public from the detrimental effects of gambling online. The IGA does not target specific online players in Australia, but rather focuses on gambling operators and makes it a crime for the site you play on to offer real money gaming. It is also illegal for operators to advertise real money games in the state of Australia.

This law pertains to both overseas and in house companies that allow online Australians to their site to play. Companies that are operating in Australia face fines up to $220,000 per day for individuals and up to $1.1 million for companies. As stated above, the Australian people do not get any penalty for playing online poker at any time unless they change the law, which is very unlikely."
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Old 10-31-2011, 12:42 PM   #48
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Re: 10 short questions for Poker Stars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
What do you actually mean by "independent audit" here?

It is normal in the business world for companies to hire auditors. That's how that system works.

How would your "independent audit" differ from the existing audit, and what problems would it fix?
Its common practise to hire auditors. Sure. In most cases companyes are most interested part in knowing truth about real financial state, productivity of labor force etc.

But in some cases nogative results provided by auditors can cost company enourmous damages. In those case it is vital to make sure companyes are audited independently.

Will provide two examples - Iceland payed hundrets of thousands $ to economics profesors from best universityes in the world to make analysis if its economics. Research said everything is good just before total colapse of this country taking billions from people in foreight countryes. Now this is a fact. When companyes like Standart & Poor's where payed based on ratings they give amount of AAA+ rating skyrocketed just before world crysis. After that rating companyes said - we have no obligation to anyone becouse its just our opinion. Now even USA has AAA if i am not wrong and complaining rating agencies are incompetent.

Even after that we are so naive thinking audit company is not biased by costumers they are payed in anyway? Only solution is to have mediator who would be equaly interested in needs of players and poker sites. That mediator was created - its gambling comissions. They are interested to have poker sites operating and generating profits. On the other hand they are equaly interested to protect costumers, prevent any shady things and have perfect reputation to be suproted by goverments and keep they jobs.

I would imagine nowadays with programs like Poker Tracker, Holdem Manager, with sites like Sharkscope or PTR everybody can make anlysis on its own HH. So, main task is to assmemble team that would be able to anaylyse this data in terms of pure math. Basicly math and statisticks scientist who would have clue about poker or be asisted by people who does. Its not difficult. Like i write previosuly, for example my father has doctors degree in math and is working for goverment in different field. Take 1 or 2 people from different countryes and ask to make similar reserach and compare results.

Main problem is how to get data. And PS has answer to this. When you think its kinda close circle. If PS has something to hide it becomes impossible to get data on those issues anyway. Only two solutions - to get data from sites like PTR that might be able with time to reach such precision and amount of data that would be suficient for research. Or gambling commisions should pass law saying it is necessary for poker sites to let comisions execute idependent audit on tearms they choose in order for sites to keep licenses. Its like driving and driniking. If you stoped by police you must agree to alkohol test to have data what amount of alcohol is in your blood. If you refuse - you automaticly accept bigest fines there is for driving drunk.

Last edited by bemyguest; 10-31-2011 at 12:53 PM.
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Old 10-31-2011, 01:44 PM   #49
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Re: 10 short questions for Poker Stars

Quote:
Originally Posted by bemyguest View Post
3. "What is the IGA?
In 2001 the Interactive Gambling Act (IGA) was passed by the Parliament for the purpose of protecting the Australian public from the detrimental effects of gambling online. The IGA does not target specific online players in Australia, but rather focuses on gambling operators and makes it a crime for the site you play on to offer real money gaming. It is also illegal for operators to advertise real money games in the state of Australia.
Online sports betting is advertised on TV during all major sporting events, with TAB being the biggest.

With the Melbourne cup running tomorrow i can find advertising on every channel.
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Old 10-31-2011, 02:06 PM   #50
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Re: 10 short questions for Poker Stars

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Online sports betting is advertised on TV during all major sporting events, with TAB being the biggest.

With the Melbourne cup running tomorrow i can find advertising on every channel.
So? Ads are on russian TV to. Despite few month ago they made laws against online gambling operators even worst it was prior. IPoker is not illeagal in USA to. Just money transactions to sites. PS, FTP, UB had been all over TV. Big game, HSP, PAD etc. Obviously they were advertising not PS. com but PS.net - not gambling site without real money play. Maybe something similar in your country?

P.S. BTW search for your goverment statements after BF.
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